Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Jen Scheinman, a registered dietitian and one of the lead educators at Timeline Nutrition.
In our discussion, we dive into Urolithin A as a postbiotic nutrient and explain why we cannot get enough through nutrition alone. Jen shares common midlife symptoms she observes in her patients and clients, including changes in body composition, mood, skin health, and fatigue. We explore the impact of immunosenescence, mitochondrial dysfunction, and the connection between mitochondria and estrogen, and Jen discusses regional differences in diet and the microbiome, how birth delivery methods, infant feeding choices, and antibiotics shape gut health, and offers practical lifestyle strategies for improving skin health. We also touch on the latest research into the skin benefits of topical application of Urolithin A.
I know you will find this conversation invaluable, and I look forward to having Jen back later this year to dive even deeper into the science behind Urolithin A.
IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:
Why Urolithin A is such a powerful nutrient
How Urolithin A, mitochondrial health, and longevity are all connected
How Urolithin A gets produced by the gut microbiome
Why do we need to supplement with Urolithin A?
How mitochondrial dysfunction impacts aging
The link between mitochondrial function and estrogen
How declining estrogen affects skin health and hair growth
The role of lifestyle factors like diet, hydration, exercise, and sleep in maintaining skin and hair health
The benefits of using Urolithin A topically
An overview of the clinical studies conducted on Urolithin A
Bio: Jennifer Scheinman
Jennifer Scheinman is a seasoned Registered Dietitian Nutritionist with over 25 years of experience in the field of nutrition and wellness. She holds a master’s degree in integrative and functional nutrition and has advanced training from the Institute of Functional Medicine. Jen’s expertise in cellular health and aging makes her a sought-after speaker and media expert. As the Senior Manager of Nutrition Affairs at Timeline, she educates healthcare providers and consumers on the role of Urolithin A in supporting mitochondrial health and longevity. Beyond Timeline, Jen is a writer, speaker, and nutrition coach, helping women optimize their health and vitality during the menopause transition and beyond.
“The thing about Urolithin A is you don’t get it directly from food.”
-Jen Scheinman
Connect with Cynthia Thurlow
Follow on Twitter
Check out Cynthia’s website
Submit your questions to support@cynthiathurlow.com
Connect with Jennifer Scheinman
On the Timeline website
Timeline Longevity on Instagram
Transcript:
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower, and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.
[00:00:29] Today, I had the honor of connecting with Jen Scheinman. She's a registered dietitian and she's one of the lead educators with Timeline Nutrition. Today, we dove deep into urolithin A as a postbiotic nutrient and why you can't get enough from nutrition alone, common middle pause symptoms she sees with her patients and clients, specific to body composition changes, mood changes, fatigue and skin changes, the impact of immunosenescence and mitochondrial dysfunction, the role of mitochondria and estrogen, specific regional differences that she has seen in terms of diet and microbiome, the impact of how we are delivered, whether we are breast or bottle fed, or the use of antibiotics on the gut microbiome, key skin changes with aging that she sees, specific strategies and lifestyle changes that can be beneficial for skin health and lastly, the use of urolithin A topically and the research around this and key skin benefits. I know you will find this to be an invaluable conversation and I will definitely be having Jen back later this year to dive deeper into the science.
[00:01:40] Well, Jen, I've been so looking forward to this conversation. I so enjoyed seeing you when we were at A4M together in December. Welcome.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:01:48] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that was such a powerhouse of women on stage, talking about some of the stuff we'll chat about today, about estrogen, aging, female health and longevity. So, I'm so honored to be here. Thank you.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:02:01] Yeah, absolutely. And to give listeners just some context, at A4M, Jen facilitated a panel with Dr. Stephanie Estima, Dr. Felice Gersh, Dr. Terry Wahls, all of whom have been guests on the podcast more than once. In the case of Dr. Gersh, four times and counting. But yes, I think the one thing that I really took away is how hungry women are for good information about what's changing in our bodies as we're navigating this perimenopause to menopause transition and how things like nutrition and specific products can be very beneficial for helping support our bodies especially with your background, Jen, because you are a Registered Dietitian, help us understand what urolithin A is and there are foods that we can get it in but how did you come to be interested in this particular work given your background in nutrition?
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:02:57] Yeah, so I'll start with how I got interested and then, fill everybody in on what we know about it. But so, I had my own private practice as a dietitian and I was working, mostly women in menopause and midlife. But I also balanced my private practice with consulting work because I am somebody who likes to do all different types of work. And I was doing some freelance copywriting and some other sort of training materials for various companies and I got hooked up with Timeline, which is the makers of Mitopure, that's the validated urolithin A supplement. And as I was reading through this research, I was blown away for two reasons.
[00:03:36] So, number one was just this understanding of mitochondrial health and its link to longevity and the power that this nutrient that I had never heard of maybe four years ago, I had never even heard of this nutrient. And there were all these amazing clinical trials about it. And I was like, “People need to know about this.” And also, the fact that a lot of those trials were spearheaded actually by the founders of Timeline, that is very, very rare in a supplement company to be putting, quite frankly, like millions of dollars into clinical research. And they work almost in a way that is like a pharmaceutical in the sense where they are putting all of this money into clinical research before something is available for the public. And that's very, very rare in the supplement industry.
[00:04:19] Something I'm really passionate about, the fact there's a lot of safety and understanding of how molecules work before we start ingesting them. So, I actually left my private practice to join full time to really just help educate people about this molecule and just further understand just this tie between mitochondrial health and longevity and aging.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:04:38] Well, I love that you came to this organically and then from there pivoted. And I think for so many of us that have worked in traditional allopathic medicine, the ability to pivot and then pursue other things, but still utilize your training is perfect. And so, when clients or patients will ask me what urolithin A, let's unpack a little bit more about what it is, how it works in the body and why it's so important.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:05:07] So, let's first start with what it is and where we'll find it in nature because I'm a food first type of dietitian, where the foundation of what we eat that's the key element in terms of our health. Of course, exercise, sleep and supplements are meant to supplement what is lacking in your food. And yes, there are certain things you can take to bolster what you're already doing. But the thing about urolithin A is you actually don't get it directly from food. So, you can't necessarily say, like, “This is a good source of urolithin A.” What you can say is it's a good source of precursors and here's what I mean.
[00:05:43] So, we actually, and I'm sure your audience is very, very familiar with importance of the gut microbiome, and we were just chatting about that offline before we started. So, our gut microbiome actually will convert certain elements in our food that we can't actually digest. So, for example, fiber, and in the case of urolithin A, these polyphenols, which are nutrients found in certain plants, and they'll convert it into what are called postbiotics. And that's the key about urolithin A. So, you aren't getting it directly from food. You are relying on your gut to make it for you. But unfortunately, there's some published research, and we've actually done even more research than just what was published, looking at different populations around the globe and trying to analyze their gut microbiome and understand how many people actually can make this molecule.
[00:06:29] And, I expect decades and decades ago, most of us could make this molecule. But in today's world where we aren't eating healthy diet, we're taking antibiotics, there's just a lot of junk in our environment. The vast majority of us don't make this. So, really, only about 30 to 40% of people even can make urolithin A if they eat the dietary precursors. So, I think that's sort of one of these rare cases where you're likely not going to be getting this from food. And then when we start talking about really the clinical benefits that we see when you take it, you would actually have to drink six cups of pomegranate juice every day.
[00:07:06] So, even if you are one of those few people who makes urolithin A on your own, you would have to drink six cups of pomegranate juice every day to get the same therapeutic benefit that we're seeing with dietary supplements. And while I think pomegranates are fantastic and I have no problem if someone wants to eat a pomegranate daily. I would never encourage someone to drink six cups of pomegranate juice daily because the amount of sugar that is coming in from that probably would counterbalance any of the benefit you would be getting from the urolithin A. So, we don't want to be drinking six cup of pomegranate juice. This is again another reason why I think a dietary supplement in this case is necessary, because it is really difficult to even A, know if you make it and B, then to get it through food. So, I think that's an important understanding for people.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:07:49] Well, and I 100% agree with you. I'm all about nutrition first. But I can tell you after looking at tens of thousands of stool tests over the past nine years in my clinical practice, I can tell you that most gut microbiomes are not optimized in a way that they're going to be able to do this work on their own. And I think that, one thing that I'm always very transparent about is a lot of supplements that are out there. And I say this very transparently, “If you can get it from food and that works for you, great.” I'll give an example. Vitamin D, if you live south of Atlanta and you get enough sun exposure, you may be able to make enough vitamin D to not need to supplement, but most of us do not.
[00:08:31] And I'm certainly someone that is wearing sunscreen when I'm outside. And so, I take vitamin D year around. And I think it's along the same context of saying, “If you can get enough on your own.” But given the health of most people's gut microbiomes at this point, and understanding some of the changes that are happening in our gut microbiome as we are navigating, middle pause is what my editor calls it, middle pause because I kept saying perimenopause and menopause, perimenopause and menopause in the book and she finally said, let's call it middle pause.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:09:02] I like that.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:09:03] Yeah. Helping people understand that there are definitely some areas where we know we need additional bolster and support. And so, when you are speaking about this signaling molecule and postbiotic, what are the things that you are seeing as you are speaking to women, especially middle-aged women, symptoms they're experiencing or drawing upon your experience when you had your private practice, what are some of the most common things women are struggling with or they're reporting to you about symptoms they're experiencing?
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:09:33] I think in general, and not necessarily just related to urolithin A, but I think in general the things that I hear the most probably the number one thing is just body composition and sometimes it's weight gain and sometimes it's like I haven't gained weight, but it's just all of a sudden, my stomach it's like all of the fat has moved there. And what used to work for me, like when I gained, some holiday weight or vacation weight, I would just clean up my diet and get back into the gym and that's not working anymore. But I think some of the other things that are less talked about by experts like yourself are some of the mood changes and the fatigue and the skin changes I think are some of the big ones that I hear, and hair, which a lot of times-- they're distressing.
[00:10:18] Even if your doctor sort of dismisses it as just like “You're getting older, that's why you're forgetting things.” That's really distressing, especially if you're somebody who is running a family, running a business, has a job or just wants to not forget a word in the middle of the conversation. Like these are things I don't think we should be dismissing and things like skin and hair too. Like `are, you know, again, that can be distressing and it's a lot more than vanity. Like our psychology, our self-esteem all plays a role in that. And so, these are a lot of like the very common complaints that I hear in both my practice, from my friends and just even in the research that I'm reading.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:10:56] Yeah, And I think in many ways and I don't want to make this is the patriarchy. But in speaking to so many women that are navigating these bodily changes, these skin changes, the frustration they're experiencing and how many I think, well-meaning providers will say to their patient, “Well you're X age,” like this is just the way things are. And I'm always here to kind of find a reframe. Like I know when I was in the throes of perimenopause, my provider looked at me and was like, “Well yeah, you've gained some weight, your periods are heavy. This is just the way things are.” And I was like, “Absolutely not.” So, I think the point of why I think it's helpful to hear your experiences and what you've seen with your friends and your clients and patients as well is help women understand like, there is very much this unifying experience that we go through as we are navigating this menopausal transition.
[00:11:46] And yet also very validating to see there are many ways in which we can proactively, I'm not talking about anti-aging I'm just saying proactively address the changes that are going on in our bodies. And so, getting back to the mitochondria, because that's where it all starts, all stems from these powerhouses of our cells, helping us understand what is happening with our mitochondria as we are getting older that more often than not, is actually what's driving a lot of these symptoms we experience.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:12:13] Yeah. So, I like to think of the mitochondria in very simple terms, especially for anybody who, I've talked so much about the mitochondria that I can see eyes glaze over when people are like, “Jen, I've had enough of this”. So, in the most simplest terms we think of them as the powerhouse of the cell because they're like little batteries that provide-- what's called ATP. That is this currency that our cells use. And it doesn't matter if it's a brain cell, a muscle cell, or a skin cell, right? They are thriving on this energy that our little factories produce. But just like any other factory, right, it wears down with wear and tear with use, it starts to wear down and that's what we call mitochondrial dysfunction.
[00:12:51] So, as we get older, plus tied into again, like environment, diet, all the things that are working against us in modern day, that accelerates how these energy factories break down. So, it's almost like you can think about it, you can almost feel it, right? When you think about the energy you had when you were 20, when your mitochondria were working much better, and the energy that you have. I'm about to turn 50, and it's very different, right? It's a different experience. Part of that is part of this mitochondrial decline. But our bodies are so amazing in the sense that we have these sorts of health healing and quality control mechanisms to keep these types of systems in check.
[00:13:26] And our body actually has this ability to recognize when your mitochondria start to become dysfunctional and to say, “Okay, factory, it's time for the demolition team to come in. Let's demolish this factory, this mitochondria. Let's keep what still works and recycle it and build new ones.” And then the stuff that is no longer working and no longer serving us, we can pull in the demolition and the garbage truck and get rid of that. And that process is a fancy scientific word. It's called mitophagy. And it's a very specific form of autophagy, which I'm sure your listeners are very aware of, that cellular recycling. So, it's just really on our mitochondria. But here's the catch, like all things, that also starts to decline as we get older.
[00:14:07] So, what happens is we start to have more and more of these dysfunctional mitochondria in our system. And our quality control mechanism is now turned down. And so, you start to really get this buildup of damaged mitochondria, you have less cellular energy. And again, that is starting to impact everything from brain, from skin. And that happens to everyone. It happens to men. It happens to women. But with women and aging, men is a little bit more of a gentle decline into aging as women, we go off a cliff as we enter midlife. And one of the things I've been particularly interested in learning more about is that there is a direct link between mitochondrial function and estrogen. So, our mitochondria, actually the first part of estrogen synthesis happens inside our mitochondria. So, our mitochondria take cholesterol and turn it into pregnenolone and that's the first step of estrogen synthesis.
[00:14:57] But then conversely, also that estrogen, we have signaling receptors on our mitochondria, which when the estrogen binds there, it starts signaling our mitochondria. Hey, create ATP, create energy. So, it's really this sort of vicious cycle that's happening inside our body as estrogen levels start to decline and our production is declining as well, and then our metabolism is declining and all of the things that we then feel on physically.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:15:21] So, yeah, well, and I think that helping listeners, explaining this whole process of the mitochondria and the estrogen, explains why brain fog for many people. So, thinking about it on a molecular level, but thinking about brain metabolism and what's going on in the brain, it explains, as estrogen is waning, why many people will experience so many cognitive changes. And sometimes even with replacement, it can take time for the mitochondria and this estrogen binding to be able to allow us to feel like we have more clarity and have the ability to not struggle with word finding. I have one patient in particular that was still young, in her 40s, but had significant brain fog. And so, she was started on estrogen replacement.
[00:16:10] And I remember her saying to me, I just assumed it was going to happen immediately, that I would suddenly feel back to where I was, but it took several months. So, helping people understand, estrogen receptors are everywhere in the body. But I think that in many ways where many women will see the effects of those shifts in estrogen are related to cognition, word finding, memory, things that many of us take for granted until we go through this time in our lives. And you did such a beautiful job, creating those analogies and making the information much more accessible.
[00:16:43] And so, when we're talking about research that's being done and things that are ongoing about urolithin A and the gut microbiome and what's changing with estrogen as we're getting older, is there research being done in terms of looking at different countries or different parts of the world in terms of accessibility? Because I would perhaps naively assume that for individuals living and have more of a plant-based diet, maybe perhaps they're not struggling with as much of urolithin A production. But I'm guessing that may not be the case given the fact of this proliferation of ultra-processed foods.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:17:17] Yeah, so we have looked at different countries around the world exactly to understand are there areas where there is more natural production? And we do see that, we see variability. So, we see France actually has one of the most robust production. And I think to your point, because it is following, a very high polyphenolic compound diet, lots of fiber, obviously, like that's the key to keeping your gut microbiome robust and diverse. And no surprise that we see the US is not a very high-producing country. We also see, interestingly-- so our chief medical officer, I know you've had him on Dr. Singh a number of times, he's from India, so he's been particularly interested in the Indian population.
[00:18:00] And despite that that is a diet that tends to be very rich in polyphenols, they are not very robust producers. And his belief is that they are very aggressive with antibiotic treatment, especially in young children. And that's a thing that I think is also important to understand. Like myself I think very common for children who are born in the mid-70s. I was bottle fed, I was a C section baby and despite the fact as a dietitian I am trying to eat a very gut friendly diet. There are certain species that probably will just never really inhabit my gut and that's sort of the same with Dr. Singh as well. And this is not a test, unfortunately yet that everybody can take.
[00:18:41] But we are in the process of developing a blood test where you can test whether there is natural urolithin A in your blood after drinking pomegranate juice and then compare that to a test after you take Mitopure. And we've done it. I don't know if you've had a chance to do that test, but a couple of practitioners who are really, really dedicated to gut health and they are surprised to see like, despite all that I'm doing, I'm just really not producing a lot of this on my own. So, again, that kind of just goes back to this, like unable to really rely on diet as its sole way to get urolithin A into your system.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:19:16] Yeah, it's interesting, there was research that just came out about if a mother when she's pregnant is deficient in omega-3 fatty acids, that fetus will be deficient in omega-3 fatty acids and will never be in a position to be able to build omega-3 fatty acid production at a level that they should be. And so, I think the more that we're learning about preconception information and with the understanding that, yes, even with a polyphenol rich diet, and so we're talking about brightly pigmented fruits and vegetables for listeners, even with all those things, and I too was born in the 70s, I was born vaginally and I was breastfed. But because I intermittently have had some antibiotics throughout my lifetime, appropriately given, let me be clear, I've never been a fan of arbitrarily just taking things because I think I have a virus. But I can tell you without question that the more that I understand about the gut microbiome at a young age, I was given antibiotics because I had bacne.
[00:20:17] So, back then they didn't necessarily give you topical things, they would just give you a very low dose of antibiotics. And so, I didn't think anything of it. But the more I'm realizing, especially developing gut microbiome, so children, even teenagers and young adults, your gut terrain is very impacted by things that you're exposed to.
[00:20:35] So, even oral contraceptive use in teens can then go on to impact their gut terrain, their gut microbiome for years and years and years, their ability to build muscle, build bone. Sorry, I'm getting off on tangent, but the point I'm trying to make is that, as we understand more and more about the gut microbiome, we start to understand that we can get started on the right foot and do a lot of the right things moving forward or we can start off on the wrong foot and we can still work to rectify where the terrain started from. But there's nothing that we can do about what was done before. We can only look forward. So, I always say, don't worry if your mom had a c-section. Both my kids were c-sections because I had two big breech kids and I always tell them, “Sorry, guys, but you did pretty well after that.” And that's-- it is what it is.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:21:22] It is what it is. I mean, that's also a life-saving procedure. It was sort of the same thing I had. I had my umbilical cord around my neck and started to like lose a heartbeat and like so these are the things that like, “I might not be here were it not for a c-section. So, I think there's no shame in antibiotic use and there's no shame appropriately in any of these procedures. That's what modern medicine is great at. But then I think the thing that's exciting is that we now have tools in our hands that can help people in the case of urolithin A is that we have a supplement that we can take and that you don't have to be worried about your gut. That's not what I'm trying to imply. [Cynthia laughs]
[00:21:58] Right, but you don't have to be worried about, well, what's the right microbes to make sure I'm getting urolithin A, am I getting enough of these precursors? You don't have to be as stressed out about that and you can take something that is potent and helpful. And I think one thing I wanted to actually circle back on that you had said before too was a little bit about just women and suffering with perimenopause and a bit of the patriarchy and just these conversations being not as open. But I think one of the great things now is that we also now have tools. And I think that's sometimes you go to your physician and they didn't have anything to help you and so that's also a struggle with a conversation of a woman sitting in front of you struggling with issues with her body changing, her skin, her hair and now we have all of these wonderful tools, HRT thank God, is part of the conversation again.
[00:22:49] Things like omega-3, vitamin D, urolithin A, creatine. There are supplements that can also help bolster what you're doing with diet and exercise in the gym. And so, it's really kind of a great place right now. And I think we're just on this cusp where hopefully the next generation is A, going to have so many more tools, there's going to be more tests, there's going to be more conversation around what happens as women age.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:23:11] Now, and I think it's so important, I always say that our moms generation, that in many ways we're watching what's happened to them aging because my mom was on HRT and was taken off of HRT. And I recall the conversations that we had. I was a new nurse practitioner when this happened around the beginning of the Women's Health Initiative. And as she always reminds me, your generation is going to change things for subsequent generations. And why it's so important that we're speaking about these topics, that we're open and honest, that we're very transparent, because that helps drive conversations. And women listening to the podcast can then take the information and talk to their healthcare providers about it as well.
[00:23:49] Now, one of the biggest pain points for most of my friends, if not patients and clients, that they'll share very transparently, is as they are navigating this perimenopause-menopause transition, especially at the tail end of perimenopause, they start noticing a lot of skin changes and whether it's laxity, wrinkles, just feeling like they don't look like themselves. Like one close girlfriend says to me, often, “I look like I'm mad. I look angry, and I'm not angry.” And she was like, “And I look tired, but I'm not tired.” So, help us understand what is happening as we are navigating this transition. What's happening with collagen and elastin and the influence of estrogen, which is so important for both of these, what is happening on a skin level?
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:24:33] Well, estrogen is a master signaling hormone. And although, I think, what we've been touching upon already as well, we think of it as reproductive health and helping us to create offspring. It touches on probably every system in our body and one of those systems is skin. And it is a signaling molecule that helps the production of collagen, which is what gives our skin some of its structure and its turgor. And as our estrogen starts declining, we start to see these significant losses in collagen that happen as we go through the perimenopause phase. And, there's several things, again, that it's more than also just vanity. We start to notice that our skin is thinner.
[00:25:17] It's an organ that has an important role besides just how we look. So, our skin starts to thin, it starts to dry, we bruise and cut more easily. And so that's definitely one of the things that we start to see. And then, of course, right, we start to see things like fine [unintelligible 00:25:29] lines. We start to see more deep furrows that are happening, whether it's in our brow or jowls or our neck. And there is even more inflammation that's happening inside of our skin. And so, these are all things that are both just again, from an esthetic standpoint, can be distressing, but also are concerning as we talk about this integrity and the health of our skin as a barrier to the outside world.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:54] Yeah, it's so interesting. One of the things that I pulled up was that the loss of estrogen in our skin drops our dermal collagen by 30%. And that really accelerates. I think it was saying, it continues to drop steadily at a rate of 2.1% per year. So, I feel like that first five years of menopause seems like it's the biggest hit, but then it just continues. It echoes beyond there. And so, when we're talking about this loss of estrogen, the impact on our skin, how else does it impact hair growth. Are you seeing a lot of people reporting to you that they say significant changes in not just hair loss, but hair distribution patterns? They'll say, “My ponytail isn't as thick as it once was. What can be going on there?”
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:26:41] Yeah, so it's hair. And again, this all comes back to hormonal imbalances, where our estrogen is starting to dip lower, and while our testosterone may dip lower, too. It's now not in the same balance that it was before. So, we start to notice things as you mentioned, the thinning of the hair, but also things like hair texture is different, not just the thickness. It's drier. Nails are drier. And a lot of that is really due to this loss of estrogen, which helps to boost, basically, hydration to these organs as well. And so, I think it's just an interesting thing that we're starting to see is not just in facial hair, we start to notice that, I think is a huge one. As I was thinking about it, chin hair, mustache starting to be more visible than it ever once was.
[00:27:25] And it's interesting, right, because when we go through pregnancy, we also notice these hair changes. And that is why it's just so obvious that the hormones play a role in this. And there are, again, though, I think we're starting to learn more and more about how lifestyle, nutrition and other tools, besides just using things like the prescription medications for hair growth, we're starting to see that there's more tools that we can have that are more natural ways to help us feeling more like we felt when were younger.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:27:49] Yeah, absolutely. And I think for a lot of people, for some people, it's their hair that bothers them the most. Other people, my girlfriends and I, chuckle about these bizarre, seemingly overnight chin hairs. So, you'll all of a sudden, you'll catch your reflection in a mirror at the right angle with the right light, and you're like, “That is part of my face for a long time. And I didn't know. Why didn't anyone tell me?”
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:28:11] You pluck it and you're like, “This thing is an inch long. Like, how did nobody tell me this thing was here?” Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:28:16] Yeah. And I remember years and years ago, when I was an ER nurse, we used to joke about these wonderful patients that would come in from nursing homes who were not oriented to time or place. And clearly, they were very pleasant, but they didn't know where they were or what time it was. And we would jokingly say, and all these bizarre hairs that start growing. And we'd see these lovely older people and having conversations with them, and they would say, “Why do I have that hair on my face?” Like, you would show them a mirror and they had no idea why there was a mirror-- I don't know, but we would have these conversations.
[00:28:49] So, it's clearly this shared experience that we start getting abnormal distributions of hair growth or shifts in the way where hair is growing or maybe you have less body hair, maybe less hair on your legs, less hair on your arms, and then bizarrely, you're getting this vellus very fine hair that you're finding on your face. I think for so many of us, it's very much if you can laugh about it, then it probably makes it a whole lot more-- it makes the process not seem quite so overwhelming. When you're thinking about strategies specific for skin, what are some of the conversations that you're having around this? Like, what have you found to be most beneficial for skin, starting maybe at a nutrition level? Hydration.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:29:30] Yeah. And that's exactly where I was going to go. Like with anything, lifestyle has to be the number one thing. So, diet rich again in polyphenols, antioxidants, whole foods, limiting sugar, which can actually trigger inflammation not just inside the body, but in the skin as well. Adequate hydration is going to help to keep the skin feeling supple and more plump. Exercise, there is research showing that strength training, it's not just good for your muscles, it's not just good for your brain, it's good for your skin as well, because everything in the body is connected. And the most obvious statement, we all know how we look after a poor night's sleep. And so, making sure that sleep is a focus is going to be critically important. And then, of course, there's the things you can do to start up leveling.
[00:30:15] There's some incredible research on dietary collagen. There's topicals, urolithin A, I think for me personally has been such a game changer in my skincare routine. So, I'm a dietitian. I love food, I love nutrition, obviously. But I used to joke that if I had to do it all over again, I might be an esthetician or a dermatologist. I love skincare. And so, when Timeline actually launched their skin line, I was like, “In heaven, but also being a bit of a skincare junkie, I wouldn't use a product that I didn't--" forget like, the science is incredible. But if I wasn't seeing the benefits in my own skin, and it has been for me, just something that I think makes my skin look so dewy and healthy and moist.
[00:30:56] I have my mother, who is 77 on it, and I think her skin has never looked better, which is incredible. And she takes very good care of her skin as well. So, science is really starting to uncover a lot of very active, potent topical ingredients that we can use that can help counter some of the damage that's happening A, from the sun because that's really the number one thing that is causing skin aging. Then also the biological processes that are happening with estrogen, with loss of collagen with-- mitochondrial decline plays a role in skin aging as well. So, both the biology of aging and just what the environmental damage that's happening to our skin.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:31:33] Yeah. And I think that as you know, this information kind of evolves. It really allows us to pivot. But we're still focusing in on sleep, stress, and nutrition and exercise, like those are the core. And then we can add on additional things. I think for many of my patients, and I say this with great reverence and respect, over 25 years, a lot of patients just want to take the supplement and they don't want to change a diet. Now maybe when you're younger you can get away with that. I have teenagers who are very athletic and very fit and occasionally I'll see like, a Chick-fil-A bag in the trash. And they probably have eaten that after going to the gym. And I'm like, “That doesn't make any sense.”
[00:32:12] But having said that, I am a realistic. I think this is a time in our lives that really dialing in on those choices makes a huge difference. And you mentioned sugar being very inflammatory. And it's when we do food diaries, when I ask patients to kind of write down and I'm like, “There is no shame, there's no blame just give it to me straight because then I can help you.” I'm sometimes surprised people are unaware of how much sugar infiltrates our day-to-day diets. Even if you're eating clean, like the ketchup, the salad dressing, you know, seemingly there's some drink that you're consuming, you don't realize it's got 20 g. My kids like Steaz iced tea. If they have something on the go, I get the unflavored ones, but occasionally I buy the wrong ones. And I'm like, “It's 20 g of sugar in one can.”
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:32:59] Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:33:00] And so, I think that sugar can be this slippery slope. And for a lot of individuals not realizing that you can be dealing with joint pain. There's specific cellular changes that occur. This glycation end products that happen at a cellular level on the skin when you're consuming so much sugar. And I'm curious if this is something that you saw in a lot of your middle-aged patients. They're not sleeping well and they're super stressed out. And what do they gravitate towards? Oftentimes, it's sugar because it makes their brains light up with dopamine and they feel good. There is reward of, “Oh, I'm stressed, so I'm going to have the sugary cupcake.” Not realizing that you're setting yourself up for this, like, reward pattern of when I'm stressed, this is what I do to alleviate the stress, at least temporarily and it creates this vicious cycle.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:33:45] A 1000% and we even see, one poor night of sleep can alter your hunger and satiety hormones. And also, will alter your blood sugar regulation as well. So, it is this very vicious cycle. And to your point of sugar being hidden in a lot of foods that you wouldn't expect it to be hidden in, like ketchup, for example, and tomato sauce. And so, our taste buds are also now used to this sweet taste. And so, it becomes even when you start reading, like, food labels and starting to understand, like, what's actually inside our food, that might not really be necessary in there. You just have developed this taste for it. And that takes a little bit of time to reset.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:34:27] But the good news is that actually does really reset. Like, it's funny that every once in a while, it's like Halloween and there's a little mini Snickers. And I'm like, “Oh, let me have that.” And I'm like, this is gross. Like, I don't like it anymore. And I say that with complete honesty. And I still love sweet stuff but I eat high quality dark chocolate. And your taste buds do change. And I think that the good news is that if you are committed to making some of these changes, reading labels, really understanding what's inside your food, it's not overnight like your patient. In Amazon Prime world, we really always want things tomorrow. But you can reset your taste buds and you can really start to appreciate, the sweetness of a fresh strawberry tastes completely different than like a strawberry candy.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:35:13] Yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned the Snickers because that is like, my husband's kryptonite, maybe at Christmas I might buy him a Snickers or one of those things I can put in a stocking. But I've come to find that those stereotypical peanut butter cups, Snickers, Twix bars, if I were to eat one, it would be way too sweet. It's way too sugary. I agree with you 100%. Having a nice piece of fruit or high-quality dark chocolate, which is my one vice in life, and I tell my husband I will never give it up because I've given up so many other things, [Jen laughs] like the one thing I hang on to. But I think when you get high enough dark quality dark chocolate, it is not super sweet.
[00:35:52] It is not designed to be sweet, although I do like it with salt, like that slight sweetness with the saltiness is that combination in my mouth is very satisfying. Now, let's talk about Urolithin A topically because I think this is really exciting and I've had the opportunity to try some of these products myself. What is it showing the benefits of using it topically on the skin for these skin changes that we're seeing in middle age?
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:36:17] Yeah, well, so it goes back to understanding just how urolithin A works in the body. And I think we danced around this a little bit, so I just want to reconnect some of the points that we made. We talked a lot about mitochondrial dysfunction happening as we get older, the acceleration that happens as we start to go through perimenopause and that innate ability of our body to recycle, that mitophagy, that recycling of this dysfunctional mitochondria, and that recycling process also slowing down as we get older. So urolithin A, that's the molecule that's in Mitopure and in all of Timeline's product lines, has a very unique mechanism of action. And there are a lot of things that are on the market right now and people are talking about mitochondrial function, things like NAD precursors.
[00:36:58] But urolithin A works in a very unique way on the mitochondria and it triggers that recycling process. And in fact, it's the only signaling molecule that has been proven in humans to do that recycling process. So, it's very unique. The things that in nature will trigger mitophagy fasting and caloric restriction exercise. And while nothing replaces those, we also know that not everybody is fasting, nor should they be. And while everyone should be doing some form of physical activity, we aren't. The vast majority of Americans are not exercising. And so, this offers a unique way to help upregulate that process. And so, Timeline really started more in the muscle space.
[00:37:39] And I know you've had Dr. Singh talk about those incredible clinicals, but what I believe the story was that people actually started reporting that their skin was looking better when they were taking this. And it was sort of this like, “Oh, I wonder if there's a direct link there.” And so, it turns out that urolithin A can be directly absorbed in the skin cells. And while it's a completely different mechanism of action, I think we're all very familiar with the fact that you eat vitamin C for example, and that it has effects inside the body, everything from immune to internal collagen production, anti-inflammatory. But then you can apply it topically, and it has very potent effects in the skin cells.
[00:38:12] And that's the same thing with urolithin A, is that you can take it internally, but when you apply it topically, you're going to see these robust changes happen in the skin. It's very potent and local, the benefits there and it's working through very similar mechanisms where it is triggering that recycling of your mitochondria. So, when you have more energy in your skin cells, you basically have a skin cell that is acting in a more youthful way. The cool thing about the skin is that we actually see the turnover there happening of the mitochondria much more quickly. So, while in the body it can take up to four weeks to see that replacement of the dysfunctional mitochondria, we start to see that in just 72 hours. And that was done using skin biopsies.
[00:38:54] And what we see is not only that is more mitophagy is happening. So, genes are these signals that tell our body how to perform. And so, as we get older, the genes that tell our body to make more collagen, they are downregulated. And when we apply topical urolithin A, those genes get turned up, the volume gets turned up, signaling like, “Hey, skin produce more collagen.” And then when we actually see like what does that mean? We start to see these significant improvements in fine lines and wrinkles in just two weeks’ time, it's a visibly noticeable change. And then when those studies went out to eight weeks and using very high-tech imaging where we can actually measure the depth of wrinkles and the volume of wrinkles, it's statistically significant, the reduction that we see there.
[00:39:39] The other thing that I think is a unique piece of the puzzle in terms of aging skin with urolithin A is the impact that it has on photo damage. So, the main driver of aging in the skin actually is sun damage. And, I'm guilty of this too, like, I do put sunblock on my face, but if I take the dog for a walk at 5:00 PM in the middle of the summer, I'm not putting sunblock back on my face when I put it on in the morning. And there's also some science showing that, like the blue light that's coming from our computers all day long, that's also causing photo damage to our skin.
[00:40:10] So, there's a really interesting study that the research team did was they actually exposed skin to UV light and then they applied either a placebo cream or the Urolithin A cream. And what happens after skin is exposed to UV damages? There's a lot of it's called erythema, it's inflammation, it's swelling, it's redness that happens. And the Urolithin A cream that all resolved much more quickly, significantly so than a placebo cream. So, there appears to have this photo damage resiliency that's happening with Urolithin A which makes it really rare because when we think about in skin probably like the number one thing that women are using for skin aging, wrinkle reduction, is retinols, retinoids, different variations, tretinoin.
[00:40:51] And not only is that for many people, really hard tolerate. It makes your skin dry, it makes your skin flaky. Some women can't use it at all. Some can only use it once or twice a week. But you have to be so careful when you go in the sun. Same thing with alpha hydroxy acids. Anything that's causing this deep exfoliation to the skin. And now here's something that not only is giving you similar wrinkle reduction properties as a retinol, but you still should be safe in the sun. Let's make that clear. But you don't have to be as scared as when you're using like a retinol type of product. So, it has this really nice, safety profile and efficacy that makes it pretty unique in terms of, I don't like to use the word antiaging, but just aging skin ingredients.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:34] Well, and I love that, you started the conversation around this turnover piece. And one thing that many women will report is, “I have skin buildup. I feel like I'm not exfoliating naturally like I once was.” And that is a byproduct of the aging process is that, we have to either use topical things on the skin or when I use the term scrub, I don't mean scrub your face, but things that will help get that top layer of the epidermis off. So, understanding that Urolithin A topically will help with that skin turnover, that's very exciting.
[00:42:07] Knowing that for many people who are intolerant of retinols, retinoids because of either skin irritation or their skin is just-- I have to be careful in the winter because if I use it every day it will be a flaky peely mess. And so, for me, I have to be really careful about. And again, it's the hydration. We're losing hydration in the skin. I just wanted to tuck in this nerdy fact, as we have less estrogen and we have higher follicular stimulating hormone, as we're navigating late perimenopause and menopause, we start losing our thirst receptors thereof. By the time we get thirsty, we're really dehydrated. And that is a byproduct of this loss of estrogen too which fun fact, I thought I would interject that.
[00:42:45] But helping people understand this is much more gentle to the skin, better tolerated from what it sounds like and certainly my experience has been-- And people will compliment me on my skin, which I appreciate it is utilizing products like this that I think can have a huge therapeutic benefit are using just the topical preparation because I know you have some new products that are coming out. I'm not sure I'm allowed to speak about them right now, but I know there is a new product coming.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:43:11] There's some new products coming, so we can stay tuned for that. But I personally use both the topical and I use the oral because they work differently. And so, the oral is not necessarily going to get to your skin to get the same magnitude. Like yes, some people notice their skin does look a little better when they take that. But you're not going to see the same magnitude of wrinkle reduction or even that photo damage protection with the oral. So, I think of the oral more as like systemic for muscle, immune, brain health. But then the topical same thing. It's not going to go really be absorbed in meaningful quantities in the skin, I'm sorry through the rest of the body into the bloodstream.
[00:43:50] So, I keep the topical as really something that I'm using on my face and I use all three. We have three different skin products and the thing that's really interesting about our skin line is all the studies that I was just talking about were done with 1% urolithin A. So that's what's in each of our skin products. We have a serum, we have a day cream and we have a night cream. So, you could absolutely just use one and see great benefits. And that's what a lot of people do is they'll start with the serum. If they have a skin line that they love, that they're not ready to depart with, but just want to layer something else in, the serum will play nicely with other things.
[00:44:22] You could use it if you do use retinol, if you do use vitamin C, other things you can include that. But we formulated all three of the products with other important actives so that it could be a full system. So, there are peptides in all three of the products. In the night cream, there is some squalene and nipple flower extract which is really like a very gentle almost alpha hydroxy overnight to help with that exfoliation and getting rid of some of those dead skin cells that you talked about, niacinamide, and there's some green tea extract which is very much like anti-inflammatory antioxidant that's in the day cream. So, it's meant to be really dewy and glowy and then the serum is meant to be lifting and hydrating and pumping.
[00:45:04] All three of those products, as I said, they have that 1% of urolithin A and they've also all been clinically studied and we see robust, robust improvements in like skin barrier. We start to see things like hydration as you mentioned and just that glowy healthier looking skin.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:45:22] Well it all is, you know, I think for so many of us that whether it's our dermatologist’s office or we go to an esthetician and they're talking about different products. Sometimes it can be challenging to navigate choices that are available. But I feel comfortable knowing that there's solid research behind this and therefore I feel more comfortable saying if you're going to invest in something, this is something that will be effective. When will the new products be out? I'll just leave it as products so that I'm not forcing you to discuss anything that you're not able to speak to because listeners will be curious.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:45:54] Yeah, well there may be new products out by the time this airs. We're the very tail end of February here, the last day of February as we're recording and there should be some new products out before the summer. So, that will be an exciting time. It'll certainly can come back on and share and make sure that your listeners, especially if this does post around the time that we're launching, we'll make sure your listeners are very aware and can learn all about the new products that are coming. So, it's exciting.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:46:20] Well, please let listeners know how to connect with you outside of the podcast if they'd like to learn more and connect about Timeline Nutrition and Mitopure as well as the topical products.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:46:29] Yeah, so timeline.com, all of our research is published in peer-reviewed medical journals and everything is listed on our website. So, anyone who really likes to nerd out and read the research and we have the same quality research done on our skin line as our nutrition line, which is again also very rare. @timeline_longevity on Instagram is a great place and if anyone wants comes to, just myself personally @jenscheinman-nutrition on Instagram. But I think the Timeline website and the Timeline Instagram has just all the information you want to know just about not only urolithin, A but just aging process in general.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:47:04] Thank you again for your time today. This is as always, an invaluable conversation.
Jennifer Scheinman: [00:47:09] Thank you so much, Cynthia.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:47:11] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review subscribe and tell a friend.
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