In the ever-evolving journey toward holistic well-being it is my privilege to welcome the esteemed Dr. Vincent Pedre onto the podcast once again!
Dr. Pedre believes that the gut is the gateway to excellent wellness. His latest book, The Gut Smart Protocol, features a 14-day personalized gut healing plan, which is a testament to his commitment. As a functional medicine physician, the Medical Director of Pedre Integrative Health, the Founder of Dr. Pedre Wellness, and the CEO and Founder of The Happy Gut Life LLC, Dr. Pedre brings a wealth of expertise!
In today’s conversation, we embark on a profound exploration of the gut microbiome's intricate relationship with pesticides, particularly scrutinizing glyphosate's role as an antimicrobial chelating agent. We navigate how that impacts our gut microbiome significantly, from dysbiosis to leaky gut syndrome, including the reduction in mucus production. Our dialogue also covers the profound impacts of antibiotics, the often-underestimated role of the soil biome, how we can reframe weight loss resistance through a gut-centric lens, the value of fermented foods, and the role of histamine. In addition, Dr. Pedre also unveils invaluable insights gleaned from his 2020 experiences with the Hadza tribe, shedding light on the nexus between the gut microbiome and holistic well-being.
Today's discussion with Dr. Pedre reveals a myriad of information that will transform how we perceive the intricate interplay between our inner ecosystem and overall health. Stay tuned for more!
IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:
The impact of glyphosate on the gut microbiome.
How are most people getting exposed to glyphosate?
Why some countries have outlawed the use of glyphosate.
The importance of the soil concerning our health.
The cumulative effects of antibiotics on gut health.
Why is it essential to eat fermented foods?
Fibre-rich versus high fermented foods.
How it all starts with the food you eat.
The triad of detoxification.
How different types of gut bacteria impact the extraction of calories.
Why is the Hadza tribe so fascinating?
Over-sanitisation and the gut microbiome.
“We are what we eat, what we inhale, and what we touch.”
- Dr. Vincent Pedre
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Connect with Dr. Vincent Pedre
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Dr. Pedre’s book, The Gut Smart Protocol, is available from www.gutsmartprotocol.com, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or your local bookshop
Transcript:
Cynthia Thurlow: Welcome to Everyday Wellness podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner, Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower, and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent, is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.
Today, I was rejoined by Dr. Vincent Pedre. He joined me last on Episode 222. He is a functional medicine physician, the medical director of Pedre Integrative Health and founder of the Dr. Pedre Wellness, CEO and Founder of the Happy Gut Life LLC. He believes the gut is the gateway to excellent wellness. His newest book is The GutSMART Protocol, featuring a 14-day personalized gut healing plan. Today, we spoke at great length about the role of pesticides in the gut microbiome, specifically glyphosate as an antimicrobial and chelating agent, how this impacts our gut microbiome significantly with dysbiosis and leaky gut as well as a reduction in mucus production, the impact of antibiotics, the role of the soil biome, what contributes to weight loss resistance from a gut centric perspective, the value of fermented foods, the role of histamine and his experiencing with the Hadza tribe in 2020 and what that has taught him about the gut microbiome and overall health and wellness. I know you will enjoy this conversation as much as I did recording it.
Welcome back, Vincent. It's so good to have you back on the podcast. I've really been looking forward to this conversation and discussing your new book.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: I'm excited to be here finally and thank you so much for having me back. I really enjoyed our first conversation. I think this is going to be a great one.
Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I really enjoyed reading your book. And one thing that really stood out to me that you did a particularly great job was kind of discussing the role of pesticides and gut health. I don't think there's enough conversations around what exactly these herbicides and pesticides actually do to the gut microbiome. And I'm just going to read a statistic that really stood out to me. Since 1974, 18.9 billion pounds of glyphosate have been sprayed worldwide. What is it about glyphosate that is so toxic to our health and the health of our gut microbiome?
Dr. Vincent Pedre: You have to look at what the glyphosate molecule is. It's basically a mineral binder. We call it a chelator. That means that it binds minerals and the way that it kills weeds is by starving them of nutrients. The thing is that same action, actually, if you look at patent on glyphosate, it's actually patented as antimicrobial agent because our microbes also need those minerals to function. So, when you ingest glyphosate, it's going to have several different effects inside the gut, and one of them is going to be it's going to disrupt the gut microbiome in the same way that an antibiotic can disrupt it. Maybe not to the same extreme that an antibiotic can, but if you think about over a lifetime exposure and when you get an alteration in the balance, if you think of the gut as this ecosystem sometimes, I tell patients that the gut is like a rainforest. And a rainforest depends on a balance of a lot of different types of plants and organisms in the ecosystem that keep the ecosystem in balance.
And if you create an imbalance in that ecosystem, then that's going to cause a domino effect. And the domino effect that we get in the gut is that it starts with dysbiosis. So, an imbalance of good and bad bugs. So, there's maybe an overgrowth of certain types of bugs that tend to be opportunistic when you take away some of the good ones. And then when that happens, then the next thing that happens is a loss of integrity of the gut border and you start losing the mucous layer and then that leads to intestinal permeability or leaky gut, which then is basically the top of the domino for many, many health conditions that affect everyone who's listening to this podcast.
Cynthia Thurlow: And where do you think most people are getting exposure to glyphosate? Obviously, we know that there is geographic propensity. Obviously, those in the Midwest are unknowingly probably exposed to more pesticides. And certainly, glyphosate or Roundup is kind of its technical terminology. But what crops or what foods are exposing us to the most food sources that are impacting this pesticide load that we are experiencing?
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Yeah. I think it's important to note that exposure to glyphosate can happen either orally, you ingest the food that has glyphosate residue on it or you can inhale it. So, if you live in the Midwest, in farmland or near farmland where glyphosate is being sprayed, it's going to be in the air also and it can be inhaled. But you also mentioned Roundup. And you can go to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy Roundup weed killer and spray it on your lawn. And if you're doing that without some sort of N95 mask to protect yourself while you're spraying it, you're going to be inhaling glyphosate. And if your neighbors are doing this, there's always like, "Well, where is this coming from?" Because sometimes we'll do an environmental toxin panel on patients and check their glyphosate level as part of that. And I've been shocked to see how high glyphosate levels can be in a patient who is eating organic at home, like being really careful.
Because the crops that we know that are most likely to be sprayed with glyphosate-containing pesticide are the genetically modified crop and the two biggest one in the US are soy and corn. But we also know that glyphosate is ubiquitous and it's being sprayed on a lot of different things and it's also sprayed on wheat. So, a lot of wheat, non-organic wheat is going to be contaminated with glyphosate. And I'd hate to say it but if your organic farm is downwind from a GMO farm, some of that is going to get into the other crop, because it's airborne. So, soy and corn being some of the two biggest crops that we produce in the US. And I was actually surprised, I was at this International Microbiome Congress in London many years back, and there were some scientists from Korea, and I was talking about glyphosate. I did a presentation actually on glyphosate and how most of the soy, like 90 some percent of the soy in the US. And they came up to me afterwards because they said, "Wait a second, Korea imports its soy from the US." And I thought, "Well, really? You don't grow your own soy." And they're like, "No, primarily they import soy from the US."
And they were asking, wait a second, does that mean that we're importing genetically modified soy that has been sprayed with glyphosate? And it was kind of like this big wide eyed, "Aha like, wait a second, what is going on here?" And so, I think it's important to also note this is a worldwide issue. And there are some countries in the world that have outlawed the use of glyphosate, recognizing not only the harms that it causes, because glyphosate being a chelating agent, it gets into the soil. And that's something else that I talk about in my book. You can see back here, [chuckles] GutSMART Protocol, the importance of the soil with respect to our health.
And one thing that we see in the soil when there's been monoculture and overuse of glyphosate, because one thing that's happening is that the weeds are becoming more resistant to glyphosate. So typically, a farm that's growing genetically modified produce is going to be using six times the amount of pesticide they would have otherwise used because they know, like, "Oh, well, the crop can withstand it, and we can really get rid of the weeds, but the weeds are becoming more resistant." And the problem is that because it's a chelating agent, it's chelating minerals in the soil. And the soil, you have to think of the soil also kind of like our gut. So, the gut has this incredible microbiome that lives symbiotically with us and is an important key element of creating health in our bodies.
Well, in the same way, the soil is like the guts of the earth. And in that soil, there are a whole bunch of different organisms, insects, earthworms, but also a lot of bacteria. And when it gets sprayed with glyphosate, you start seeing alterations in the bacterial profile in the soil to bacteria that are not so favorable. So, the environmental effects then cause effects in our food supply too, because the minerals get chelated. So, the same crop, that crop that's been sprayed with glyphosate to get rid of the weeds is also going to be a mineral deficient crop, because the glyphosate is chelating minerals that can't get into the plant. So, it's not going to be as robust and healthy as a crop that's been raised using regenerative agriculture techniques, organic techniques, where the crop has to kind of develop its own antioxidants and be able to fight off things on its own, which makes it, its like I know you talk about this hormesis.
It's basically a crop that's being grown organically, is having to encounter hormetic stressors that actually make that plant more robust. So, the glyphosate in this kind of like and I explained this in my book, and actually when I was writing my book, my editor asked me, "So what comes first? Is it dysbiosis? Is it leaky gut? What is the order?" And in most instances, I think what's happening with people is they develop a dysbiosis. So, the ecosystem gets altered and then that altered ecosystem can no longer support a healthy gut barrier and then you get leaky gut. Now, there are exceptions to that because we know that over-the-counter medications that so many people take ibuprofen, so NSAIDs for all sorts of aches and pains, that those can directly increase gut permeability. And then we also know that if you develop certain autoantibodies as a result of having some sort of food poisoning, so there's certain bacteria like Campylobacter, Salmonella, E. coli, Shigella that produce this toxin called cytolethal distended toxin.
And when you get-- so a lot of people, there's this big theory and Dr. Mark Pimental talks about this that he believes a lot of IBS follows some sort of food poisoning with one of these bugs that then what happens is that the body then starts developing antibodies to self. Because some of the cytolethal-- the structures, so think of the scaffolding inside the cells that line the intestine gets broken down. And then some of those proteins get exposed to our immune system, which is not used to seeing these intracellular proteins like actin and vinculin, just think of them as scaffolding. They're just holding the cell together and also holding the tight junctions between the cells, which keep the gut barrier sealed. So, they're like these Velcro, like very complex structures. And the body, if you develop antibodies to these proteins, it can start to degrade those connections. And you can also get leaky gut through that fashion. It's kind of cool because you can actually test for that in the blood. Typically, a patient that has this is going to be presenting more with diarrhea or with what we call mixed IBS. So, it's diarrhea alternating constipation.
If you're listening and you're someone who suffers from just constipation, like you're more of an IBS with constipation, then it's very unlikely that you have this issue. And really what it means is it's just differences in strategies on how to rebuild the gut lining. But that's basically the mechanism that's common to a lot of things. So, you could replace glyphosate with an antibiotic and it's the same domino effect, the antibiotics coming in. It's really not just killing off bad bugs, it's killing off good bugs. And if that balance isn't restored, then that can lead to leaky gut as well. And of course, for anybody who's listening, sometimes you have to take an antibiotic. So, I get that question all the time, like, "Well, what if I have a dental procedure and I have to take an antibiotic?" And well, every time you take antibiotic, you should be doing gut restoration afterwards.
Cynthia Thurlow: I agree wholeheartedly. And it's interesting because I feel like for those of us that are north of 40, oftentimes it's this cumulative exposure over time. You may not be aware of the insult of exposures to pesticides in the gut microbiome. You may take a couple of courses of antibiotics, and I think both of us fervently believe there are instances where we need them. And I always use the example that in 2019 I had six weeks' worth of antifungals and antibiotics. And I think it's probably going to take me years to restore my gut microbiome back to where it was. Having said that, I think that it's helpful to kind of talk through some of these things. Like as an example, one of the things you talk about in the book is 30% of antibiotics are unnecessary and that's from the CDC. That is not a contrived statistic, helping us understand that there are many viruses that antibiotics are prescribed for and this contributes to antibiotic resistance. Helping us understand that sometimes we have to kind of suffer with a stuffy nose for a couple of days and we don't like that. We like this kind of instantaneous gratification. But there are clearly instances where we need antibiotics.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow: But understanding that 47 million prescriptions are written for antibiotics a year, and not all of those instances do we actually need them. But what I thought was startling was that you mentioned one five-day course of Cipro will induce 12 months of dysbiosis. That's one five-day course, we're not even talking about a seven or a 10-day course. So, understanding that each time you're prescribed an antibiotic, it's magnifying these effects. I think the one statistic that I heard after I was in the hospital was that it would probably be 18 to 36 months to get my gut even being proactive about it, getting back to some restoration of functionality where I was prior to appendicitis. And so, I think for many of us, we take the antibiotic and we don't think anything of it. But I do believe these cumulative insults can have a significant impact on where we are.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: I also want to say that because I think of myself as a gut biohacker and I'm also not a patient person, so I like to shorten the time from disease to recovered and optimal again. And sometimes that does take time, but you have to think the person who's taking that course of antibiotics. What other obstacles to healing are they filling their bodies with? Are they having a lot of sugar? Are they having a lot of dairy? Are they maybe gluten sensitive but don't know it. It's subthreshold so it's not obvious to them. And they're eating a lot of gluten and that's causing leaky gut along with some other health habits, lots of stress. So, I think that there are ways to shorten that timeline and I talk about that in my book and there're definitely studies that are pointing us in that direction and just intuitively things I've done with myself and with patients.
I got Giardia in Guatemala and I was deathly ill, like to the point where I needed IV fluids. And when I came back there was nothing else that could make me well other than taking an antiparasitic and antimicrobial. You know at that point, I was not feeling well and I knew if I needed to recover. So sometimes you do need that antimicrobial. But as soon as I finished that, I was really focused on gut restoration. And for me, because I understand myself and sometimes people, not everybody might have this intuition. I just felt that I needed kefir. So, I started having kefir on a daily basis, which is unusual for me because I also don't usually do dairy kefir. But the intuition was you need kefir. Kefir generally will have a much higher probiotic count than yogurt will. And if it's a well-designed organic kefir, you can make it at home also. It's super simple to make and along with bone broth and just a very simple diet when your stomach is upset, I tend to favor white rice. I think it can be really settling for the stomach and you can either eat it hot or let it cool down, like, then develops resistant starch and it's much better for your gut and for your metabolism.
But the reason I bring this up is because I think it's really important to note that we can restore the gut. And this might not be right for everyone because if you have histamine issues, it's not going to work for you. But if you don't have histamine issues, the best and quickest way to restore the gut after being on antimicrobials is to incorporate fermented foods. And there was a key study that I included in my book that was done at Stanford University. Now, it was a small group of about 36 people, 18 in each arm, and they unfortunately didn't have a control group. So, they did a diet comparison. It was a fiber rich diet compared to a high-fermented foods diet. I think they should have had a third group that didn't have any of these interventions or maybe was just having a general healthy diet. And the fiber rich group, they increased their fiber intake.
Now, some people only have like 10 g of fiber per day. So, the goal was to get the 40 g somewhere in the 40-45 g range. So that's pretty-- you know for some people who entered the study, that was quadrupling what they were taking. For some of them, they were at 20, so it was double the amount of fiber. And then in the other group, what they had them do is increase their fermented foods. And it could be yogurt, it could be I don't know if people know what this is, but vegetable brine drinks where you're just drinking the water from a fermented vegetable or sauerkraut, things like that, and they had them increase their intake to four to six cups per day, four to six servings.
Typically, a person pre-study was having like 0.4 servings of ferments per day. And they were looking at different markers. So, they were looking at microbial diversity. So, when we're talking about recovering the gut, the main thing that we're thinking about is we need to restore microbial diversity. When you bring an antibiotic in, you're losing some of that diversity because the antibiotic is killing off a bunch of bugs. Not just the bad ones, but some of the good ones. And so, they were looking at microbial diversity as well as about 36 inflammatory markers. And they asked the question, which group is going to do better? Does the fiber rich versus the fermented group? And in functional medicine, we hear eat the rainbow, eat as many vegetables of different colors. And a lot of that represents taking in a lot of fiber. And I honestly thought when I was reading the study that it was going to be the fiber rich group that was going to win. I felt like I was at a horse race or something. I'm thinking, "Okay, who's the winner here? The fiber rich or the fermented foods?" This is really important because this type of dietary guidance can make a huge difference in people's lives. And so, it was the high-fermented foods group that increased their microbial diversity the most, which was surprising, but I can explain why.
And secondly, they dropped 36 inflammatory markers. Some of them, they were looking at cellular activation, like cytokine activation of macrophages, things like that. So not just typical immune activation, but actually what we call cellular immune activation, so innate immune system. So, it was able to bring that under control. And the interesting thing is, so this study was done over the course of 17 weeks with about a four week ramp up. And then a six week-- they didn't go from like 0.4 servings to four to six. They ramped it up because one of the most common symptoms as people increase fermented foods is they're going to feel a little bit more bloated and gassy. What they found was that after about two to three weeks, that leveled off and they didn't feel that anymore. They felt fine. And so, they stayed at that high level for six weeks and then they had a washout for seven weeks. And then they looked at all of these markers. And the key here is, it was a small group. So, it wasn't like a big study. It was mostly women. So, it wasn't diversified in terms of who the participants were, mostly white women. But it does start to point us in a direction.
Now, the fiber rich group was interesting because they decided, well, are they all the same? Was everybody in the fiber rich group? And they weren't. They actually were able to divide them in post analysis to three groups. One with high diversity at the beginning, middle and low. And so, then they looked at, well, what happened to these groups as you added more fiber if they started with high diversity, they actually had favorable immunomodulation. So, the fiber came in and seemed to control the immune response, regulate it. If they had low diversity when they increased fiber, it actually activated the immune system. It's quite interesting. So, it did the opposite effect. So, diversity itself has an influence on baseline, on how our immune system is functioning. And obviously with the fermented foods group, it shows that it lowers inflammatory markers. And I know you talk about this a lot; inflammation is the one underlying cause for all chronic degenerative disease. So, if we're going to make a difference in chronic degenerative disease, then the question from this study is do we need to be thinking about fermented foods?
Now, I take it a step further and think, is it really ferments versus fiber? And I don't think it should be one against the other, I think it's actually both. We should be increasing both and we probably don't have to increase the fermented foods, four to six servings is quite a lot. If you just increase it to maybe two or three servings per day with more fiber, then you're having this aggregate effect. One of the critiques on the study said that maybe the fiber rich group just needed more time to show the changes. Maybe it just didn't kick in. But the reason that you might be wondering, well, why having yogurt or fermented drink that only has maybe like one or two different bacterial lineages, like lactobacillus bulgaricus or acidophilus or something, why is that increasing diversity? And it turns out that those bacteria feed other bacteria and they kind of come in and they control the environment inside the gut. And it creates this environment where it just promotes the growth and diversity of a lot of different bacteria that are not in the ferment itself.
So, it's kind of interesting to think that because we used to think like, just have a fermented food that's just going to increase the presence of that one bacteria, but it's not how it works. They're this interconnected network and they are supporting each other in different ways. Some of them produce these postbiotic products that then feed other bacteria that then help increase the bifidobacteria or some of the clostridial species that are favorable in our gut. So, if you are on antibiotics and you're looking to recover and I write this about in my book, if you don't have any histamine issues, want to work on increasing your fermented foods and of course your fiber as well as tolerated. And I think that's the fastest path to recovering the gut, especially if you can make it at home making your own ferments.
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting because I think about the questions that we get and I allow my listeners to ask questions ahead of time when I share which guests are coming on. And one of the very specific questions was, "I know that I'm histamine sensitive," I guess is the terminology they used. So, if someone's listening and they've been on antibiotics or they know they're working diligently on gut health, but they have to be conscientious about histamine-laden foods, do you have a workaround or suggestions for them?
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Absolutely. So, anybody who is histamine sensitive, their gut lining is not producing enough diamine oxidase. So, it's an enzyme that helps break down histamines in food. So, more histamine foods and histamine-provoking foods, obviously you want to keep those low. But really the underlying problem is the gut and the gut lining and the lack of diversity of the gut microbiome. So, then you say, "Well, but you just told me the best way to increase diversity is by eating fermented foods which are high in histamine, which are going to trigger my histamine issues. So, what do I do?" Well, we have to bio hack it and we've got to go in through the back door. The backdoor is rebuild the mucous layer and we can do that. There's been some great research on how bioflavonoids can help rebuild the mucous layer. So like pomegranate is probably one of the best ones. Pomegranate arils or pomegranate extract that has been shown to help improve the integrity of the mucous layer. And it doesn't get metabolized into methane or carbon dioxide. So, it does not produce gas, which is nice because a lot of these people who have histamine issues are also very bloated.
So, you don't want to give them too much prebiotic fiber because they're going to start feeling really horrible. These are the people who are also sensitive to onions, garlic, they have to be really careful with cruciferous vegetables. So, you want to emphasize in people like this, what you want to emphasize is things like that are bioflavonoid-rich like pomegranate and also citrus bioflavonoids. And there're actually some supplements out there that have pomegranate extract and citrus bioflavonoid extracts that can be used to start to gently-- this is not an overnight thing, but what we're doing is it helps to rebuild that mucin layer. If you think of the gut lining as it's just this one cell layer thick and there are certain cells called goblet cells that are secreting the mucus and there's an inner and an outer layer of mucus. When you're sick and when things are often you've got leaky gut, the mucus layer has broken down and that inner layer of mucus has bacteria. Now that inner layer of mucus should always be free of bacteria. It's like a protected zone. So having things that are rich in bioflavonoids, these antioxidants can help start to rebuild that.
Cynthia Thurlow: Have you read any research while you were getting ready to put the book out about Akkermansia? I know that we're starting to see a lot more information on social media. This is one of the questions that came up is, "If I know that there's been a breach of my small intestinal lining, if I know that I'm prone to overexaggerated histamine responses, is there value in concentrating?" And I know that there are specific probiotics that are now targeting Akkermansia. But it's my understanding that these bioflavonoids that you're referring to can also feed this particular bacteria, which will go on to produce a lot more mucus.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: I think that's more important is to think like you're putting a tiny deposit with a probiotic. And yeah, probiotics can be helpful. Akkermansia is fastidious because it grows in anaerobic environment, so it's not the easiest bacteria to isolate. And they did finally put it in a probiotic. But I am more in favor of supporting it through bioflavonoids. And things like quercetin is really helpful for Akkermansia and of course the pomegranate extract. But quercetin, like in capers, are really high in quercetin. You can easily support it that way. And I think that by doing it through food, it's much more sustainable over time and you're building a much more robust environment because it's not just about Akkermansia, it's really about the entire environment in there and how all of these different bacteria are supporting each other. So Akkermansia by itself is not going to save you, creating a diverse gut microbial environment is what's going to create the most positive beneficial effects on your health.
Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's really important and something that we try to stress as much as possible that it really all does start with food. And so, knowing there are food-based sources and the irony is my mother called me, she had watched someone on a podcast that will remain nameless and they were talking about their particular probiotic that had Akkermansia in it. And I said, "Mom, from what I understand, you can use some pomegranate. Like that would be a better source than adding another supplement to your supplement stack."
Dr. Vincent Pedre: And you'll find this interesting. I ran into a study, it was a small study and it was actually an intermittent fasting study, but it was really more like they did a fast-mimicking diet. So, they were doing broth and for a week they did this kind of a fast mimicking and they were looking at bacteria like Akkermansia and they found that the "Fasting actually increased Akkermansia in the gut." So, it seems like there's some favorable effect to knowing what foods to eat, but also introducing some intermittent fasting that could also increase Akkermansia.
Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's really fascinating, and certainly from my perspective, it's helpful to know that there are things we can do proactively at home as an example. To me, eating more fermented foods is something that everyone can work towards. I always remind people that it's not just about kefir, it's not just about yogurt. There're fermented teas that are low sugar. There are certainly such a huge variety of vegetables and certainly making them at home is a nice way. If you find one that you love, just kind of run with it. For me, personally, I love any fermented vegetable. I'm even starting to get into kimchi, even though I have to find one that's not super spicy, that's always like my kind of limiting piece. Let's pivot and talk a little bit about metabolism. I think most individuals that listen to this podcast, this is a huge area of focus for the podcast even in and of itself. And how does our gut impact weight loss resistance or our inability to lose weight? Because I think this is really fascinating and really should speak to why all of us should be working actively to have a healthy gut microbiome.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Yeah. I think there're several factors to talk about there. One is the gut inflammation connection, that's super important. And then the second one is the gut detoxification connection. And I bring this up because I, over the years, have seen patients who get to the point where maybe they've lost a beginning amount of weight and they're starting to feel better, but then they hit a wall and they just can't get below that feeling. Like their body just won't let them drop those final 10 pounds. And they're doing everything. They're doing whatever it is, intermittent fasting, they're restricting, they're trying all sorts of things. Some things that you probably want to cover your ears [Cynthia laughs] because why do people still believe that that works? Like undereating protein, not getting enough protein and thinking that's going to help them lose weight, whereas it's slowing down the metabolism. But we have to think about the gut.
So, I tell people, whenever you hit a weight loss plateau and you have no idea, like, you're doing everything, you're exercising, you're at the gym, you're doing the diet, and nothing's budging, you have to look under the hood. You've got to look at the gut because it's probably the gut that's holding back those 10 final pounds. And it could be inflammation. Maybe there is leaky gut. And if there's leaky gut, we know that a very inflammatory molecule gets in, but we also know that they've measured. They've even seen like, bacteria and bacterial DNA in the bloodstream people with leaky gut, but most importantly, endotoxin or as we also know it, as LPS or lipopolysaccharide and that increases and turns on inflammatory pathways in many different tissues in the body including fat cells, which then secrete all sorts of interleukins, which are the same molecules that our immune system creates to communicate inflammation in the body.
So, when your body is in this inflamed state, it's not going to want to let go of weight. You're going to get to a point and it's just going to say no, not going beyond this point. What's holding it back is that there's a state of inflammation in the body. And if you resolve that inflammation, you bring that down, then the body can sort of take a sigh of relief and say, "Okay, I don't have to hold on to this weight anymore." We can shut off those inflammatory pathways in the fat cells, in the muscle tissue, in the liver. And the other part to this is detoxification is super important because if your body is full of pesticides, if it's full of environmental toxins, those things also short circuit the metabolism and they're going to cause blocks in the person's ability to lose weight. Now, most people when we talk about detoxification, they think liver like, "Oh, I got to detox my liver." But I call it the detox triad, which is the liver, the gut, and the gut microbiome. You have to address all three parts of this triad in order to detoxify because you could be doing everything that's supporting liver detox. But if you're not pooping, then you're holding everything in. You got to make sure, so if you want to lose weight, you've got to reduce inflammation, you've got to work on leaky gut, you've got to make sure that you're pooping at least once daily and not a constipated poop, like a real satisfying poop.
And then thirdly, supporting the gut microbiome because that's the third part of the detox triad. We have to think of our gut microbiome as an accessory endocrine organ and it's processing hormones, tt's helping us detoxify environmental estrogens. There's a whole estrobolome that deals with that. And all of these pieces are really super important. So, when I see a patient that is struggling with weight loss, the first thing I do is say, "We need to work on your gut and we need to look at leaky gut. We've got to work on detoxification." And it's amazing what happens when you support the body the right way and how easily the body can let go of weight. Now, I want to add to that there could be underlying chronic gut infections. So, when you look at the gut and obviously, I've got very generalized dietary advice that's meant to heal the gut in my book. But sometimes people hit a wall and at that point you might need to seek some help. Go see someone who really understands the gut from a functional perspective. So, someone who's in functional medicine or a naturopath who can really work with these underlying pathways working on leaky gut, working on detoxification, supporting those pathways, and that then creates more sustainable weight loss.
Cynthia Thurlow: And I think it's interesting because there's this kind of mindset, you mentioned not being patient, I think that's probably how most adults are. But I think the kind of toxic diet culture has convinced us, men and women that we should be able to lose five to 10 pounds in a week and keep it off forever. And yet what I oftentimes will tell patients is really we're aiming for one to two pounds a week, that's sustainable. When we start losing huge amounts of weight in a quick response, then it's a lot more challenging to sustain that long term. And I think what you're really speaking to is being patient with the process. I remind people that we don't suddenly become insulin resistant or inflamed overnight and we don't anticipate all of that will be alleviated in a month's time.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, you may feel a whole lot better, but it can take time.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: It can take time. And sometimes, look, results can come in as little as two weeks. And that's why I created this program in my book, 14-day program, because I think anybody can do 14 days. And I tailored it and individualized it by creating a quiz that personalizes the program to the person. But the way to think of it is, say this is the level of inflammation in your body, let me restate it. So, let's say this is the level of inflammation and this is the threshold below which you'll start losing weight when that inflammation drops. Well, you start working on your gut, you start improving your diet, you start reducing all the inflammatory things like sugar, gluten, excess dairy, things like that, and your inflammation. This is week one, this is week two, this is week three, but you're like, "But I'm not losing any weight." But you haven't hit the threshold yet.
Then this is week four, you're hitting the threshold, week five, "Oh wow, my clothes is now starting to fit looser." Week six, I keep losing weight. Week seven, because you had to get to that point where you dropped below that threshold of background inflammation, you had to drop that. And then your body can finally start to basically do what it knows to do best, which is reach a new homeostasis, new level of balance when you remove all of those obstacles that were in the way to healing, it could be drinking alcohol. I think that's the hidden thing that's a metabolism short circuit for a lot of people is drinking alcohol. So, they're doing everything right, but they're still having their wine, they still want to go out and be able to have their drink on the weekend, and they're wondering why they're not losing weight. Well, alcohol increases gut permeability, it causes leaky gut, and it increases inflammatory signaling in the body. So, it's actually feeding the very mechanism that is not allowing you to lose weight and it's short circuiting the metabolism.
Cynthia Thurlow: And it's interesting because I think coming off the tail end of the pandemic, thankfully, one thing that I have self-reported from hundreds and hundreds of women is that during the pandemic, that was something that they started consuming more of. They were home, they weren't able to see their loved ones, they were stressed,-
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Oh, yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow: --put their kids to bed, and then they would have a couple of glasses of wine. And a couple of glasses of wine became every night, not just one or two nights a week. And so, I love that you touched on the alcohol piece because what many people don't realize is our body will prioritize processing the alcohol because it is a toxin. And understanding that you get this gut permeability that if you're already dysbiotic because of exposure to pesticides, because of the standard American diet, the use of antibiotics, you're really priming this process up. The other thing that I would love for you to kind of touch on is the impact of caloric extraction by different types of gut bacteria. I think this is really interesting and certainly I know some of this has been in animal models, but understanding that depending on what is nurtured in the gut microbiome can actually lead to more caloric extraction of food. So, you may have a very thin person who can seemingly eat whatever they want. I'm going to put that in air quotes. And then someone else who feels like they eat very little and everything they eat, they feel like contributes right to more weight gain.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Yeah, yeah. And I just want to just quickly mention, just pig tailing on the alcohol, that if you're someone that is, "doing everything right," but you just can't lose weight, the devil is in the details, as I like to say. And there's a detail that's in your blind spot. So, if you think you're doing everything right and you're not losing weight and you're stuck, there's something that you're not seeing. And you might see it if you just start journaling, like everything that you drink and eat and all the thoughts that you're having and how much stress you're under and how often you're pooping. So, you can do a mood, food and poop journal. And sometimes by doing that, you can finally see a pattern and you can shine a spotlight on what you might be missing. If you're at home and you're struggling and you're wondering, I think I'm doing everything right, but you're still having that glass of wine on the weekends, whatever it is. Because I think as a functional medicine provider, what I do, and I think what we do as functional medicine providers is we basically look for the areas that are hidden in the shadows that a person isn't paying attention to or the details that have been missed that are actually playing a bigger role than they think.
A lot of times, there are certain details that are downplayed. Now, the idea of calorie extraction is kind of really interesting because technically, if your microbiome can extract more calories from your food, then you're going to absorb more calories, and potentially gain more weight. And there are certain bacteria that do that more easily than others. And it's a really great question. Like, I started as a chubby kid eating a lot of sugar, a lot of dairy, a lot of bread, pizza, hamburgers, milkshakes, all that. And when I went through my puberty growth spurt, I became really thin, and then I could never regain the weight. Now, there could be a lot of different factors in that. So, I think it's not just the bacteria. I know, looking back, that my gut was damaged and I had developed a sensitivity to dairy and wheat.
I think we can't micronize it to just the bacteria. I think it also has to do with leaky gut and if leaky gut is present and what types of foods the person is eating as well. So, I think it's a bit more complicated than just saying like, "Oh, you've got microbiome, that is a high extraction microbiome, so that's why you're gaining weight." I always go back and look at it holistically. What else is going on? Is there leaky gut in this person? And is there toxicity that needs to be detoxed? And is there mental toxicity that needs to be worked on? Mindset, the thoughts that they hold. We think of the food that we feed ourselves. We also have to think about the thoughts that we feed ourselves and how that affects our entire bodies.
Cynthia Thurlow: So important. Now, I'd love for you to talk about your experiences that you had in Africa. I know really at the crux of when the pandemic was starting, you made a trip to Africa. And this is a story that I thought was really interesting to be able to share with listeners and kind of tie up our conversation today. What did you learn about being with that indigenous tribe that you spent time with?
Dr. Vincent Pedre: That was an amazing experience, and I'm so grateful that I was able to have that experience right before the world shut down. I was in Africa in February of 2020, right before very soon after what happened and the world came to a pause. And I had the really incredible privilege to go visit the Hadza, the hunter-gatherers that live in the region of Tanzania and near Kenya as well. And they're hunter-gatherers that are still living in the way that their ancestors lived, traditionally living off of the land. They don't grow their own vegetables, but they forage for things like root vegetables that look kind of like we would think of them as potatoes or tubers or like the one that I tried while I was there and I went hunting and foraging with them was very similar to, like, Jicama. It was very watery and crunchy on the inside.
And I think it's important also to note that 95% of our history as humans, we're hunter-gatherers. So, it's only this very last bit where we domesticated animals and started domesticating agriculture and growing mass-- agriculture. For the big chunk of our history, we're hunter-gatherers. And so maybe we can learn something from these hunter-gatherers. Why are they so fascinating? There're several things and the reason that I really wanted to go on this trip when I was presented with the opportunity, because I had already heard a presentation on studies that had been done on the gut microbiome of the Hadza and found that it was incredibly diverse. It had different types of bacteria and actually bacteria that produced different types of short-chain fatty acids or more predominant different ones. One called propionate, which is not typical to find in the Western. And actually, sometimes propionate has been associated with or been associated with autism.
But interestingly, they make a lot of propionate and it turns out that propionate helps with gluconeogenesis in the liver. So, it helps them when they're not eating for hours and they're out on the hunt. So, they think that the propionate helps to keep blood sugar levels steady. It's also really interesting that their gut microbiome is very different in the sense that the types of bacteria that predominate are different. And for example, something that we would consider a pathogen like Treponema, the bacteria that causes, for example, syphilis, they have that in their gut. And the species of Treponema that they have is actually quite important because it's able to break down vegetable fibers. And since they eat a very high fiber diet, it's serving a purpose in their gut to help break down the incredible amount of fiber that they're eating. Because they're chewing these tubers, they eat baobab fruit. They're foraging for these wild berries, and they get also wild honey along with small to medium sized and sometimes large land animals but they're eating a lot of fiber daily.
And interestingly also because the men are the hunters and the women stay behind. The gut microbiome unlike in almost every other society-- in every society, the gut microbiome of a male-female couple is very similar if they're living together, eating similar foods. But with the Hadza, the women eat more fiber, they're eating more tubers, they're back home in the camp. So, their gut microbiome has a bit higher predominance of these Treponema than the hunters, than the men. So, it's interesting also to see how the diet shapes the gut microbiome. And I also think that there's another piece to it that I think is really important and a lesson that we can take from them.
They're living out in the wild, they're out in nature. They're getting exposed to dirt. They're digging things with their hands. They don't know anything about hand sanitizer. They don't wash their hands. If they come back having killed animal and they have blood on their hands. There's no concept of that. So, there's a lot of exposure to the natural microbiome of their environment, which I'd like to think that I was there and you're in the middle of the savannah. It's a semi-arid type place. There areas that are oasis, that are green, but it's also sort of arid as well. I like to think they're not being exposed to pesticides, and they haven't been, for the by and large, not exposed to antimicrobials. They do have their own herbs that they use to treat members when they get sick, but they haven't been exposed to antibiotics in the way that we have in the west, and they're not getting exposed to pesticides we hope.
Part of the influence of that is the exposure to nature, to allowing themselves to be dirty, to be exposed to dirt. And I think we need some of that in our modern lives, like getting out into nature, getting exposed to dirt. Obviously, it's a bit more riddled with nuances, because if you live in a pesticide ridden area, it's not going to be so healthy for you. But if you're somewhere where you can go out hiking in the mountains or get away in nature or like I do, I have my own garden with organic soil and organic vegetables and sometimes I'll wash them, but I'll leave maybe a little bit of the dirt on there because that's going to diversify my gut microbiome. You're getting some of those soil microbes, which are also really important for the diversity of the gut microbiome. And I think that's partly why the Hadza have such a diverse microbiome, because they're not eating the rainbow. I basically told you what they eat. They're eating tubers, wild honey. They eat wild berries. They're eating baobab fruit, and small to medium-sized animals. So, they don't have an incredibly diverse diet or access to the diversity of foods that we have. And yet they have an incredibly diverse gut microbiome. And they don't have obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, like all of the diseases that we associate with the Western world. You don't see that in them.
Cynthia Thurlow: It's really interesting. I had the opportunity to be in Tanzania in 2021, and for where we were-- we're traveling to Zanzibar, but we did actually get to interact, and they're incredibly tall. That was the thing. Being a very short person, they were very tall for me, and very thin. But they were so incredibly healthy looking. And I think we have such a biased perspective even as clinicians, because most of what we see in the United States is a great deal of metabolic disease, chronic inflammation, etc. One thing I want touch on is you mentioned this over sanitization and triclosan was something that during the pandemic, everywhere you went, the expectation was you were going to be using this. What's interesting is it's not as benign as people think it is, that in and of itself can actually alter our gut microbiome. So, I'd love to kind of end the conversation talking about this over sanitization and why, as you mentioned, don't feel like you have to be perfectly washing your hands all the time, even if you're pulling things out of the garden, the dirt that we're exposed to in many ways can beneficial.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Yeah. And again, as long as that dirt hasn't been sprayed with pesticides. [Cynthia laughs] So you have to know what dirt you're getting exposed to. They've shown in studies that the triclosan in antibacterial soaps actually causes alterations in the gut microbiome. So, we are what we eat and what we inhale what we touch. So, things can get into the body in different ways. They don't only have to get in through the mouth. You can breathe them in, you can touch them, and they diffuse through the skin. So even something like triclosan can cause alterations and problems with the gut microbiome. And honestly, you do just fine using a regular soap without any antibacterial added to it to wash your hands. And you don't want to wash your hands too much, because then you start removing the oils that are on the skin that actually form part of the protective barrier of the skin and help support the microbiome that's in the hands.
And actually, if you look at your hands, the microbiome actually here, it's more like a desert with oasis. And every part where there's a line, that's where the microbes are hanging out. And in between, where there are less lines, there's not as many microbes. You don't want to be one of these people who over-- And the same thing with hand sanitizers that are full of alcohol, they're going to basically dry out the hand and take away all the oils, which form a protective barrier for the hands. So, I've seen people who are a bit more obsessive about that, washing their hands all the time. And you look at their hands and they're all cracked and they're pink and they're red and they don't look healthy because they're-- overdoing anything is not good.
My grandfather, who lived to 99s, and I would ask him, "Well, what's the key to long life?" And he said, "Moderation." I think that's very good advice, but taking anything to extreme can be too much. And certainly, washing hands, you really only need hand soap and you don't have to do it as often as you think. And thinking that if you're sanitizing all surfaces that's going to protect you, it's likely not.
Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Well, as always, a pleasure connecting with you, Vincent. Let me say it again, it's always so great connecting with you. Please let my listeners know how to purchase your book, The GutSMART Protocol, how to connect with you on social media and learn more about you.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: The easiest way is to go to gutsmartprotocol.com and they can find all the different ways that they can purchase the book from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, bookshop.org. There's a lot, lot of different ways that you can or even just go and support your local bookshop and purchase it there. Hopefully, you know, keep them in business because they are at risk right now. And the best way to follow me is through social media at @drpedre on Instagram. I post a lot of free content trying to teach and educate people and also entertain on how to take care of their gut and a lot of gut-related information.
Cynthia Thurlow: Awesome. Thank you so much for your time.
Dr. Vincent Pedre: Thank you.
Cynthia Thurlow: If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review, subscribe, and tell a friend.
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