I am thrilled to reconnect with Kylie Larson today. Kylie is truly an exceptional individual. She is a Brendon Bouchard-trained coach, host of the Far from Perfect Podcast, content creator, and founder of Lift to Get Lean.
In our discussion today, we dive into the role of compassion, particularly during perimenopause and menopause, and explore the concepts of surrender and trusting your body. We discuss why women are more concerned about the number on the scale than their body composition, explain why data is simply data, and how resistance to change can affect our ability to manage perimenopause and menopause. We cover macros, misinformation, and metabolic flexibility and look into the value of maintenance and how to reverse diet. Kylie also shares some of her favorite resources, books, and tools.
I was honored to reconnect with Kylie, and I know you will love this conversation with her as much as I did.
IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:
The role of compassion in perimenopause and menopause
How struggling to accept body changes can lead to self-criticism and stress
The benefits of resting and mindful exercising
Why body composition is more important than the number on the scale
Why we need to be flexible about our health goals
The value of nutrient-dense foods for maintaining muscle mass
Misconceptions surrounding macros
How to maintain balance in your diet and lifestyle
Why getting enough sleep is essential
Making informed decisions about your food choices
Kylie’s favorite books and resources
“The inability to change will keep you stuck. You have to be able to re-think.”
-Kylie Larson
Connect with Cynthia Thurlow
Follow on Twitter
Check out Cynthia’s website
Submit your questions to support@cynthiathurlow.com
Connect with Kylie Larson
On Instagram
The Far from Perfect podcast
Transcript:
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.
[00:00:29] I had the honor of reconnecting with Kylie Larson. She is a host of the Far From Perfect podcast, content creator, founder of Lift to Get Lean. She is a Brendon Burchard trained coach and all-around amazing human being. Today, we spoke about the role of compassion, especially in perimenopause and menopause, and the concept of surrender, trusting your body, why women are so obsessed with the number on the scale versus body composition, why data is just data, how the inability to change can impact our ability to navigate perimenopause and menopause, macros, misinformation and metabolic flexibility, the importance of maintenance, the concept of does it fit my macros, and how we can reverse diet, as well as some of her favorite resources, books and tools. I know you will love this conversation as much as I did recording it.
[00:01:27] Welcome back my friend. It is so good to have you on the podcast, be able to spend time with you and share your incredible messaging and mindset with my community.
Kylie Larson [00:01:37]: Thank you for having me. I am so excited to catch up.
Cynthia Thurlow [00:01:39]: Yes. So why do you think women in perimenopause and menopause really struggle with the concept of fighting their body, allowing themselves to have self-compassion, the concept of surrender. I think for so many women, it doesn't matter who you are, what socioeconomic status you are, how much education you do or do not have. I feel like this is a shared issue that everyone deals with and we don't speak to enough.
Kylie Larson: [00:02:10] I think it's really hard to experience your body shifting and changing and you feeling like you don't have any control over that. And I think it's really hard to then experience that, and then we compare ourselves to the way we used to look and what we used to do that would work, and those things don't work anymore when we're in perimenopause and our body is shifting. So, it's coming from both directions, my body isn't responding the way that it used to be, and I'm comparing myself to when I was in my 30s, which circumstances are completely different, that's a whole other conversation. But then also what I need to do is slow down, rest, do less, but do it better. And it's so hard for us to do less.
[00:03:06] Like, I'm sure anyone listening, I could tell people to double down on their workouts, take it to 20,000 steps a day, do this, do that, and you're going to get the results. And they would be like, “Yes, I could totally do that. I'm such a hard worker,” but it takes a different mindset, and that isn't what got us to where we are. Like, a lot of us got to where we are because of hard work and doing all these things. And so, asking ourselves to like shift the entire paradigm, it's really hard, so it's coming at us from multiple directions, Cynthia.
Cynthia Thurlow [00:03:36]: Yeah, I could not agree more, and I reflect back. Like, now I'm in a very good mindset and space. But 10 years ago, I certainly wasn't. Ten years ago, I had never experienced weight loss resistance. I had never experienced such profound insomnia and fatigue, like feeling so tired I could barely get out of bed. I was in an area of medicine that was very high acuity, very stressful. I'm a total adrenaline junkie-- reformed adrenaline junkie. My husband traveled a lot and my kids were young. And I think about how intense my exercise was, how I was kind of starting on this paleo journey, and I was very probably lower carb than I personally should have been doing. And it was like the perfect storm of perimenopause. And I think for so many of us that are high achieving, hardworking, diligent, I was kind of raised with the, you're a hustler, you hustle, that's what you do, hard work yields all these benefits.
[00:04:37] I was raised by a mother who has been incredibly successful the entire trajectory of her professional career, ending as a CIO at one of the biggest medical systems in the country. You better believe that woman hustled and never slept. And what was interesting for me was this evolution of my mindset around rest, the right types of exercise, which was very different than the really intense conditioning classes I was doing, allowing myself to sleep in.
[00:05:11] I was explaining to someone recently, if I naturally allow my body to wake up on its own at 06:30, 06:45, 07:00 is the perfect time. And I'm like, “How many years did I force myself to get up before 04:00, 04:30 or 5 o’clock in the morning?” And that was years and years and years of that. And I'm sure there are many listeners who feel the same way. It is really a struggle to evolve into the mindset-- of a really growth full mindset of acknowledging what I did before worked then, but now I'm in a different stage of life, and I need to be kinder to my body. I think about this kind of self-flagellation that so many women are like, I'm going to beat my body into submission. I'm going to overexercise. I'm going to overfast. I'm going to not nourish my body all in an effort for a particular number on the scale.
Kylie Larson: [00:06:00] And it just backfires. All that does is just backfire. And if you're listening to this and you do, you get up even though you're so exhausted. We've all been there, let's acknowledge we've all been there, but you push through. But you're basically in tears on your way to your workout because you're so tired. You would better off resting. But it's this self-talk, “Well, then I'm a quitter. I'm a whatever. I'm lazy.” It's not the case. And it's also trusting. We don't trust our bodies. And so, when Cynthia and I tell you, “Yes, rest and your body will reward you,” you've never done it, so you don't have that trust built.
[00:06:42] Also, you feel like your body is rebelling against you right now because it's not responding. So, you don't trust your body. But the reason your body is rebelling is because you're sending it. Your body is just communicating with you. So, if you don't like what she's saying, say something different to her. Give her a different message. I love when I see clients pull back from all those high intensity classes, and they actually cut back to working out four times a week instead of five, six, seven, and their body starts to respond. They're like, “I didn't think it would work, but it did.” And then they start to trust their bodies, and then it's like another weight is lifted. It snowballs into a positive thing, but it's really, really hard to get there because it's so counterintuitive.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:07:26] Yeah, well, really doing more with less or being more conscientious, purposeful. Because I think for many of us, we've had years of, “I'm going to the gym,” and then you get to the gym, and you're checking your phone, and you're kind of doing a half ass workout. And yes, maybe you're in the gym seven days a week, but you're not actually putting forth the effort. And I think that mindset shift of, “I'm going to do more with less. I'm going to make sure every rep counts. I'm going to ensure that if I'm too tired, that I rest.” For women that are still getting a menstrual cycle, if you're in that luteal phase right before your menstrual cycle starts, you may just be tired. Maybe it's the day to do yoga. Maybe it's the day just to walk.
[00:08:06] And for the menopausal crew, if you have a terrible night of sleep, that is probably not the day to go out and try for a personal best. It's like that acknowledgement of being kind to yourself and really caring a whole lot less about what other people's perceptions are. I think is maybe one of those gifts of middle age that we are much less focused, or at least certainly I am much less focused on what everyone else is doing and then just finding like what's the right path for me? As an introvert, as someone who does really well with doing a lot less socially and when I need to be social, I'm great. But acknowledging that there's a time and a place. And so, the same thing applies to these lifestyle pieces.
[00:08:49] Now, one thing that I think you certainly speak to in your content and why you're such an invaluable resource is really helping women understand that the number on the scale is not a reflection of them as an individual. And when you're working with women directly, how do you help people become less preoccupied, dare I say obsessed, with the scale as one metric of many of changes in body composition? Or, someone comes to you and says, “Well, I weighed 110 pounds when I went to college.” I'm like, that's great.
Kylie Larson: [00:09:24] When you were a child. Okay, cool.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:09:26] Correct. Exactly. I actually still have my college ID, and I was showing my kids, and they were like, “You only weighed 112 pounds?” And I said, “Yeah, but I was so skinny.” Like, I didn't even realize that I wasn't even like a fully matured adult. I was just this kid who went off to college. So, when women are talking about this preoccupation obsessiveness around the scale, how do you help them find the reframe so that they can view themselves again with self-compassion, but also work beyond like this is one of many metrics we can use, but it's not the most important one?
Kylie Larson: [00:09:59] I love this question. So, one thing I like to always remind people of, and if you have not heard this before, listen and listen well. Your goal body is 10 pounds heavier than your goal weight. If you are after a lean, athletic, physique that looks like you're putting in all this time and effort, it actually weighs more than you think it does. So, if you're chasing-- I mean, I don't even want to throw this number out there, but I'm going to use it because I know so many women have this as a goal. 120 pounds, why? I have no idea. I have no idea. But if I had a dollar for every woman whose goal weight was 120 pounds, I mean, it's pretty well off. That number, what is that? What you weigh doesn't matter so much as your body composition. So, within that number, what we're really concerned with how much muscle mass do you have? We really, on your health journey, we want to be concerned with lowering our body fat percentage to a reasonable level, not just how much weigh, again, it's just one piece.
[00:11:02] Another thing, which might be a little counterintuitive is everyone has their own relationship with the scale. I like clients to weigh themselves frequently so they can see the daily fluctuations and get desensitized to that. So, when you start to learn your body and you learn your phase, as if you're still menstruating, you will notice in your luteal phase, maybe the scale starts to go up, and then you get your period, and everything normalizes again. Some people's scale goes up when they're ovulating. After you have a heavy workout, the scale goes up, after you have a later meal. So that's one way if someone is in a space where they can take that information in.
[00:11:40] The second thing is data is just data. The only meaning data has is the meaning that we attach to it. So, helping an individual understand that this number has no impact on the kind of person you are on your worthiness, really on anything, it is data. And coming from medical background or as a nurse practitioner, it's just information. This is information that we can work with and make our next best decision off of.
[00:12:08] And then finally, speaking of the one piece of data. So, as you are lifting your weights and you are eating more protein and you are building more muscle, your body is going to shift and change. So, I like having other data points available. Okay, what's your waist measurement doing? If the scale has gone up 5 pounds, but you just lost an inch off your waist, guess what, sister? You just lost significant amount of body fat. You're improving your body composition. How are your jeans fitting? I mean, maybe they feel a little tighter in the hips because you're building some nice, strong glutes, but maybe there's more room in the waist, and that's the other thing.
[00:12:43] The thing that goes along with the scale conversation is maybe having to buy a different size of clothes. So, I've had to buy a different size of dresses because I have a wider, stronger back now. It doesn't mean that I've gained a bunch of fat. My body shape is just different. So, we get so attached to that one number. We have this goal from when were 18 years old, which so much has happened since then. Maybe you've had a kid. Maybe you are in perimenopause, postmenopausal. We have to detach ourselves from that. And all those things that I just said, I think, really help women understand. But there's nothing easy about it, there's nothing easy about it. And I'd be lying if I told you, if I hopped on the scale and I see it go up like 5 pounds, I'm like, I wouldn't have a moment like, oh. But then I would say I would go through these questions in my head, “What did you eat? When did you eat? Did you have a strong workout? Where are you at in your cycle?” And then you can kind of just talk yourself off the ledge. But that is, years and years of reprogramming my brain and now understanding how all of this works together.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:13:46] Yeah. And it's so interesting to me because body composition is something that I feel like many of us are speaking to. What's your relationship between fat mass to lean body mass? This is why these bioimpedance scales are getting a bod pod. This is why they're so beneficial, because it can objectively tell you-- Like, I just had mine done and for full disclosure, I've been very open with my community. My dad passed away this summer. One of the things that contributed to why he passed away was because he became very frail and sarcopenic, meaning he lost a lot of muscle mass. And when that happens, you tend to fall, and he fell and hit his head and so that was the end of that.
[00:14:25] And it reinvigorated me into saying, “Okay, I've been doing. I've been working out. I'm good about that. It's good for my mental health, even more so than my physical health. It's a way of working through my stress, but maybe it's time to hire a trainer again.” I've gone episodically throughout my life and she kicks my butt and in a very good way. And we talk about progressive overload and all the things. And when I walk away being a little bit sore, I sleep better.
[00:14:54] But the point of why I'm sharing this is that before I started working with my trainer, my physician was like, “Let's do some body fat testing.” He has a formal bioimpedance scale in his office. I stepped on it. When I looked at my body fat percentage. I don't think anyone that-- If you were to see me, you would not believe that my body fat was as high as it was, but it just shows what starts to happen in menopause.
Kylie Larson: [00:15:16] Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:15:17] That even if you are doing a lot of the right things, like I'm good about my protein and I'm good about going to the gym and all these things, I have to work out harder for that muscle stimulus. I have to be more conscientious about my protein intake. And the reason why I'm sharing this and we're going to repeat this in three months and six months and see where I am. I stopped fasting this summer.
[00:15:39] Now that doesn't mean that I don't have 12 hours of digestive rest, but one of the things that I really started really concentrating on was eating enough protein. And for me, eating enough carbohydrates because I do better with a leaner protein, less fat, although I do eat fat and more carbohydrate. And we're going to see how this works on this trajectory of changing body composition. But even for me, these are things I have to be working on. And I would imagine we're going to have positions throughout our lifetime where we're going to have to change what we're doing.
Kylie Larson: [00:16:12] The inability to change will keep you stuck. You have to be able to rethink. I just read a book about this. It was absolutely amazing. But that is awesome. And it is harder. I'm sure some women listening are afraid of lifting heavy weights because they're afraid of getting bulky. I hear that. I absolutely hear that. It's so hard for us to build an ounce of muscle and we have to train harder. And when I say harder, I mean more intensely. And that was why it's so powerful. If it's in your budget, if you can make it fit with your family's spending, that money spent on a personal trainer in person is an investment. Like that is going to pay you back, not just in your muscle, but just in your wellness and your longevity, because you have to be training with such intent, and that's why we can do less but do it better. [chuckles] You're training so intensely with your trainer, you need those rest days so that the muscle can then build on the following day, and it's just tricky. You can't do this seven days a week. If you can, you're not doing it right.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:17:23] No. And it's interesting to me because-- And I still like Pilates. I want to be clear, I'm not knocking Pilates. And I did Pilates predominantly for posterior chain work and flexibility, which, even though I'm technically hypermobile, I still need the flexibility piece. And I was talking to my trainer. And I do Mondays and Thursdays, that's my split with her, and then we talk about what I do on the other days. And she was saying, “I wish more women understood that you can get away with a whole lot more of having two intense strength training days than you would if you just did hit and cardio,” And walking is great. I love Zone II, let me be very clear. But I think that the magnification of benefits from strength training are exponential.
[00:18:09] And again, to your point about women get concerned about being bulky. 75% of women in menopause don't make much, if at all, testosterone. And so, it would be physiologically impossible. And we can look at different types of body types ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph. You're probably a mesomorph. I'm an ectomorph. I have to work really, really hard, and I always think, like, I'm thinking about my old lady body. I want to ensure that I stay mobile and strong, and so my trainer has me on the floor, off the floor, constantly doing a lot of functional movement. But I think for anyone that's listening, that fears that lifting more than a 10, 15, 25, 30, 40-pound dumbbell, is suddenly going to make you bulky, it is physiologically impossible, unless you were taking anabolic steroids, and obviously, we don't advocate for that.
[00:18:56] But if you are taking testosterone replacement, that may help you. That may help you build muscle. But if your body in and of itself, like, as an ectomorph, I have to work really hard to build muscle. It doesn't mean it's impossible. It just means I have to make a harder effort. Kylie is a great example of a mesomorph. You see her in the gym, you see her in photos, she just has really, really lean, developed muscles, and that is the way that God made us.
[00:19:21] Having said that, do you feel that a lot of women, despite sharing that it's physiologically impossible for them to suddenly start looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger? Do you feel like there's still this prevailing philosophy that cardio is king, that doing the cycling, doing the sprinting, doing the long form endurance work is where it's at for weight loss? Because I feel like when I lived in the other neighborhood that I was in Northern Virginia, women that were running in their teens, 20s, and 30s looked very different. I felt like when I saw older women running my own age.
Kylie Larson: [00:19:57] Yeah.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:19:58] I'm not being pejorative, they looked haggard. And I think it has a lot to do with that chronic endurance work really does wear us down.
Kylie Larson: [00:20:06] It wears us down. So, you guys, I live in a suburb of Denver, Colorado. There's a lot of cycling here. There's a lot of running here. Yes, it wears you down. It's not just because we're closer to the sun. It beats you down. And in certain circles, yes, I forget because I live-- I mean, I'm in my bubble. I'm talking to Cynthia. We're talking about protein and lifting weights, and this is what everybody thinks, right? Nope. I go to a back-to-school night. I know what's really going on. I know what's happening. I visit my parents in the middle of America. I see what's really going on. So, no, the message has not permeated the masses yet, even though, like, I'll see articles in New York Times and other magazines or newspapers that regular people would read everywhere, but it's still--
[00:20:57] We still don't truly believe it. And it's because it worked in our 20s. Well, I used to be able to just like start running six miles every day and get ready for my vacation in Mexico. We aren't like that anymore. We aren't that person. [laughs]
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:21:10] Well, and it's funny, someone said to me, “Did we actually enjoy running?” And I said, “I know, I personally did not,” although I did it, but I didn't love it. It was never my go to default way of exercising, but I know that when I ran, I felt every single beat. Every single minute, I would be counting down how much more time do I have to spend running till I can be done? It wasn’t something that--
Kylie Larson: [00:21:32] Oh absolutely.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:21:33] I'm not a natural, you know, endurance athlete. That's not the way my body is designed.
Kylie Larson: [00:21:38] No. I mean, there was a time when I did enjoy it, but there were many times, many times where it was punishment. Late night stopping by Taco Bell. “Oh, I have to go run today.”
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:21:51] Yeah. To offset it in your mind, that's what you're thinking.
Kylie Larson: [00:21:54] So this is something I know people still think, okay, if I'm going to run 6 miles, I look at my watch, it says I burned 500 calories, that's not how it works. That doesn't mean you can then eat 500 calories of whatever. It's not how our metabolism works. So just in case anyone was thinking that you don't earn your food and you can't just burn those calories off.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:22:15] Well, I remember when I used to enjoy spinning classes many years ago, and I would have great instructors and you would get so into it. And there were always classes that were 90 minutes around Thanksgiving. And so, my husband and I would go, and in my brain, more than 10 years ago, I was like, “Oh, I need a snack. How am I going to get through 90 minutes class?” This makes me laugh, clearly, way before I ever started intermittent fast. But that was the prevailing philosophy. I'm going to have to stop and have some raisins or a piece of fruit because I'm exercising for so long. Where do you feel like we got so misguided about macros and fueling workouts? Where do you think that stems from?
Kylie Larson: [00:22:58] Oh, that's a really good question. I think a lot of it just comes from “We don't understand how our metabolism works.” In theory, if I go to a 90-minute spin class and I burn 800 calories, that means I get to eat 800 calories for the day, no more, no less, or however your brain works. I think that's why we just don't understand like that we need-- most of us, at least 1200 calories just to keep the lights on. Any activity that we do, including just our household chores, walking up and down the stairs, going to the grocery store, not exercise, is going to require even more energy, aka calories. I think that's what it comes from. We just don't understand our bodies. We don't learn this stuff in school. I think we should.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:23:43] Well, and it's interesting because there are always debates about calories in, calories out, and then there are debates about the carb insulin model and which one prevails, which one ultimately impacts our ability to gain or lose weight. And I think it's complicated. I don't think that calories are irrelevant. But I also think that hormones govern a great deal of this. And I think for so many people listening, understanding why sleep as one example, if you don't get your sleep dialed in, I can't get you to lose weight. I mean, that has been, like, my prevailing philosophy for years.
[00:24:20] But I always say, before you worry about a cold plunge or infrared sauna or lifting five days a week or whatever it is that you want to do, like dial in on your sleep, it is that important for balancing your blood sugar and your appetite. And, yes, your sex hormones are all intricately linked. Not to mention the fact, I'm sure you see this with your clients, how many women complain of brain fog? And it's a byproduct of really poor sleep habits or not prioritizing sleep? Because I know when my kids were younger, what did I do? I'd put them to bed, and then I was instantly focused on my to-do list. And so, I wouldn't get to bed when I needed to.
Kylie Larson: [00:25:00] No. And I understand, moms, that is your time for yourself. And I understand that's when you get to watch your show, nobody needs you. I don't want to go to bed yet because it's, like, so peaceful right now. So that's a decision that you have to make. But the sleep, as Cynthia said, it impacts everything. The food choices you make the next day, hormone specifics aside, that's your area of expertise. But you don't make the best decisions when you're tired and you crave carbs and you eat more carbs. And we're not talking about Whole Foods carbs.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:34] Yeah.
Kylie Larson: [00:25:35] Because the food quality also matters. I totally agree with you. Yes, calories in, calories out to some extent. But sleep, stress, and hormones are going to impact the way that you're able to use those calories and the way that you digest that food. Because just because it fits into your macros doesn't mean that it's the best choice for you to make.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:57] I love that you touched on that. It had not been my intention to talk about, does it fit your macros? But let's talk about that, because there are what I truly believe to be well meaning individuals who are probably like 20. I look at my lean teenagers who can literally eat anything they want and are impervious to the effects of what they're eating. And then I think, well, that's great, but like someone at my stage of life, that would show up in unpleasant ways. So, let's talk about the messaging around, does it fit your macros? And how that can undermine our mindset around nutrition and lifestyle?
Kylie Larson: [00:26:36] Absolutely. First of all, I'm all for flexibility. I love the idea of not having strict food rules. And that is where flexible dieting came in. That's what it means, FYM or if it fits your macros is synonymous with flexible dieting. So even if you are flexible dieting and you are working to hit macro targets, you still want to focus on a Whole Foods-based diet. Does that mean I can fit in some Girl Scout cookies? For sure it does. But we don't want to just eat a McDonald's sandwich for breakfast and then a Wendy's salad for lunch, and then have an afternoon snack of the Nature Valley granola bar, and then a frozen meal. I mean, these are all decent choices, but that can even go like as far, “Bad” that you, as you could, but you'd better off just making your own eggs and oatmeal in the morning, and then having some other Whole Food lunch.
[00:27:37] Maybe that you even stopped at Whole Foods. Speaking of Whole Foods, like, you stop at Whole Foods or Sprouts and get a premade meal there. But the food quality matters. The way that you digest it matters, fiber matters, nutrients matter, because it's not just calories. And then that begs the question of alcohol. Well, sure, you can fit a couple drinks in, but there's no nutrients there. Those are truly empty calories that are then going to affect your sleep, affect your recovery, affect your workout that you may or may not do the next day. Boundaries are loving. Boundaries mean that we care. And you need to set some boundaries for yourself.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:28:20] Now, I think you bring up so many good points and I think for each one of us, we have our 80/20 or 90/10, whatever that is. I love dark chocolate. I have a little bit of dark chocolate every day because I can moderate it. Now, if it's a special occasion and it's a birthday, you better believe when my kids have birthdays, my husband, myself, I have cake. I have my gluten free cake, and I love it. Or gluten free brownies are very popular in my house, although I can't do the ice cream with them, but everyone else does. But I know what happens. I enjoy it in the moment and I savor it. And I'm like, God, this is good.
[00:28:55] And then my dopamine receptors go off in my brain and then I have to kind of moderate what my next decision is, but inevitably it shows up in interesting ways. So, my Oura Ring. I do wear an Oura, and my heart rate goes up consistently. I mean, normally when I'm sleeping, I'm in the high 40s, low 50s. I'm always high 50s, low 60s. And it'll say, like, you didn't have a good night of sleep. And I'm like, it's the dark brownie. But it's interesting to me, that is worth it on occasion versus if I were to have and I used to love a dirty martini. That was my thing. I could savor that over an evening. It made me very happy, but then it started impacting my sleep. And so, I think for each one of us, we have to decide, what is it worth? For me, it was the only thing that gave me hot flashes. And by that, I mean alcohol. So, it was very easy to give that up. But I will continue to have my 80/20, 90/10, whatever. If I feel like I have to really dial in, it's probably 90/10. Right now, I'm trying to lose some body fat, so I'm probably more 90/10.
[00:29:58] Having said that, I think that if you can moderate something, then I don't think it, per se needs to be eliminated. But if you’re kryptonite is something that you cannot moderate at all, it's probably worth not that-- For me, it was alcohol, but I'm just trying to give that as an example. I would love a gluten free cookie. My mother makes the best cookies in the world, and I tell her, “Please don't bring them and please don't make them,” because that is, like my kryptonite, a soft, gooey cookie, oh, my God. So, I just don't eat them, but I can moderate a brownie. I can moderate a piece of cake. And again, for everyone listening, might be something different. Maybe you're a savory person. You love French fries or you like the sweet potato fries or whatever it is, mashed potatoes, whatever it is, enjoy it, but understand where do you fall in that continuum of can I moderate or do I need to eliminate? You feel like you live a life where you're not feeling deprived all the time, but you're also focusing in on more nutrient density, and that can look very different for each one of us.
Kylie Larson: [00:30:54] Absolutely. So, one of my big things that I love talking about is the idea of living in maintenance and weight maintenance instead of always trying to lose. And that is exactly one of the ways that we actually achieve being successful in maintenance. It's balancing our yeses with our nos. Sometimes I'm going to say yes, other times I'm going to say no. The other day, I shared this story. I came home from yoga, it was a Saturday morning, and my son wanted to go to lunch. And we're like, “Okay, we'll go to lunch. Let's do if have gift cards.”
[00:31:29] And so, we had a gift card to Red Robin, which is a hamburger place. And we also had a gift card to Cold Stone. So, before we found the Cold Stone gift card, I was like, “oh, cool, I know what I'm going to get at Red Robin. I'm going to have a hamburger and I'm going to have some French fries.” No big deal. Don't normally do that. And then we found the Cold Stone gift card, and I was like, “Oh, okay, I have a decision to make now.”
[laughter]
[00:31:54] “What am I going to do?” And this decision did not come from a place of restriction or even calories. It came from if I have a hamburger and I have some French fries and I have some ice cream, I'm not going to feel really good. I don't eat those three things together on the same day, that's not going to make my tummy feel good, sleep. So, I got chicken salad at Red Robin. I did have a couple French fries, but then I got a small ice cream. That's how you make good decisions. You don't always have to get everything that you want. Sometimes you have to make some cuts. Is it worth it? What do I actually want here? I'm never going to say no to ice cream for the most part, that's my priority.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:35] Yeah, it's funny, in my house, ice cream is king to the point where my kids and my husband all have developed an affinity for really high-quality ice cream. And so unfortunately, most of the grocery stores don't carry the brand. And so, I have to sometimes drive 20, 30 minutes in one direction to bring home said ice cream. But it's like an ice cream emergency. On the weekend if there is not ice cream available, it's kind of funny, and I don't eat ice cream, so to me it's not an issue, but it's humorous that has-- I think even Peter Attia holds ice cream in high regard. It's the perfect balance of carb, fat, and protein that it just lights up your brain, makes you happy.
Kylie Larson: [00:33:12] Proof that there's a God. Yes, ice cream is wonderful. In fact, my new favorite thing, speaking of moderating, my son is on a drumstick kick and I can't even get him the grocery store version that are $2 less for even two more, he has to have drumsticks. But drumsticks, now has these mini drumsticks, they're amazing. I can have one of those, I get my ice cream fix, I get my chocolate fix, I get my little cookie fix. And there's like 70 calories in this miniature drumstick. So that's my little treat.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:33:48] I love that. I love that. I didn't even know that existed, so now I know. But you touched on a concept that I think is very important. A lot of people that intermittent fast are in a caloric deficit forever.
Kylie Larson: [00:34:01] Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:34:02] And you speak very openly about-- We can be in a caloric deficit for a period of time. Let's talk about signs that we've been doing this for too long, I think that's number one. And then talking about how we go about whether we use the term reverse dieting or we kind of are getting recalibrated with our metabolism. So, we’re touching on metabolism. When you're working with a woman and she tells you she's been intermittent fasting, doing OMAD, I'll use that as an extreme example and she wants to lose body fat and gain muscle. And you're hearing, “I'm eating one meal a day, I'm probably getting by on 50 or 60, maybe that much grams of protein.” What would be some of the signs for you that would say, “Okay, you've clearly been doing this too long,” and I'm talking specifically about symptoms.
Kylie Larson: [00:34:51] Sure. If you're not losing weight anymore, like if you're only eating, I don't know how much one could eat at one meal, but, if you're eating less than 1200 calories and your body isn't responding and it hasn't responded for a good while, that's a really good sign that you've been in your deficit for too long. If you feel tired in your workouts, you have no energy for your workouts, you dread your workouts, that's a really good sign. If your body composition is changing and you're not eating any less, but you're losing muscle probably because you're not eating enough and your body is basically doing what it can to save itself. You've been dieting for too long or eating too little for too long, I don't think people understand that they're dieting or they're just not eating enough. And if you think about food all the time, if it rules your world and you're constantly thinking about when is my next meal, what am I going to eat next? I can't eat-- Okay, If I could just wait. If I could just wait until 06:00 PM, those kind of obsessive thoughts, those are all my real big signs. And also just biofeedback. If your sleep is suffering, if your cycle has become irregular, if you have zero sex drive, I already mentioned recovery from workouts. If your body is just not feeling good and it's not responding, that's a really good sign that you've been dieting or eating too little for too long.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:36:12] I feel like there's so many women that come to intermittent fasting. I certainly did to change body composition in perimenopause, and it took a while because I had to do a few other things first before that started to shift. But I think for you, because you're working so closely with women, this is a really important point that I hope every person listening is going to take and say, “Do I need to make some changes?” And certainly, I'm sharing my own personal experiences, just to say, I'm not suggesting that intermittent fasting doesn't have a place. I'm just saying for me right now, in order to build muscle, I have to back off on having a very compressed feeding window. I don't think 8 or 9 hours is compressed all that much. But having said that, I have to open it up to make sure I get enough in.
[00:36:54] So, if someone is in a position, they plateaued there, they know that they need to start making some changes. Kind of walk us through that process, because in prep for our conversation, I have a general sense of the direction this conversation will go in. But I think if we want to come up with some actionable steps to help people understand, like first track your macros to find out where you are. If you're consuming 1200 calories a day or a 1000 a day, like I think many people are unknowingly, that's a sign that you probably need to make some changes.
Kylie Larson: [00:37:26] And yes, you hit the nail on the head. I would first, we have to assess the situation, okay, what's actually going on here? You need the data. And again, just like the scale, there's no judgment attached to this data. These are simply numbers that are going to help you make the next best decision. So, if you start logging your food and you're like, “Yikes. I'm only eating 60 g of protein a day and 100 g of carbs and whatever fats. Okay, I know I need to start eating more.” Now, does that mean that I'm going to have you jump all the way up to 1800 calories a day if you've only been eating a 1000? Absolutely not. I mean, you could do that, but then you might experience some pretty quick weight gain, which is not going to help you buy into this process, you're not going to feel comfortable.
[00:38:13] So, what I like to do is just gradually have people start to increase their calories. And I would start with this person using a 60 to 80 g of protein a day. Let's just get that number up first. I think that's a low hanging fruit. And people aren't fearful of protein like they are of carbs and fats. But then once we get your protein to an adequate level, we can just gradually increase your carbs and fats, and we do it gradually to mitigate any unwanted fat gain that you might have.
[00:38:40] And I say fat gain because there will be a little bit of weight gain in this process, probably, but maybe not. But that's really just stomach contents. That's just water from carbohydrates. And best-case scenario too, you're starting to build muscle, so we have to understand that not all weight gain is fat gain and not all weight gain is bad, but also because of the way our metabolism works, here's what usually happens with my clients. They start slowly, gradually eating more, and their body responds favorably. They start losing weight again. And it's not because their bodies are defying the laws of thermodynamics everyone, it's because the more you eat, the more you burn, the more energy you have, the more you're going to fidget around, tap your toes, blink, do all these random movements, you have no idea are happening. You're going to have more energy for your workout, so you're going to start expending more energy, and there's less stress on your body. So, your body is like, “Phew, she does love me. She does want to take care of me.” And then she will respond in kind. So that's how you do it. And you just slowly, gradually make your way up. And I'm not going to have someone eat a bazillion calories. I just want you eating enough, just enough to do your workouts, to do your job, and you'll feel so much better. [crosstalk] This being said, it's so hard. It's really hard to get people to do this.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:40:02] Yeah, it's interesting with my trainer because I'm last person on board. So, I get the last option for train-- I'm a morning worker outer, but now I'm training in the afternoon. How different it is to train fed versus fasted? Let me be clear, if I'm working out in the morning, I'm not eating before I work out, that's just me personally. But in the afternoon, I've already had two meals by the time I get to the gym, and I find it is so much easier to work out, especially if I'm being pushed and my trainer does push me.
[00:40:34] And I think that allowing yourself the opportunity to change things up as you stated, if you're slowly adding in 100, 200 extra calories per week, you're being more conscientious about your protein intake and possibly your carbs or fat can make a big difference. But for anyone that's listening, I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't fast. If you can only work out in the morning and you feel better not eating, just make sure that you are eating within a fairly short time after exercising because I do think that that yields a lot of benefits for recovery. And I'm getting ready to interview Dr. Stacy Sims. Finally, we've coordinated calendar, she lives in New Zealand and, understandably, it's like sometimes you have to kind of work around your guest’s availability. Having said that, I think for everyone taking away from this conversation, number one, we don't want to do the same thing in perpetuity. Number two, be open to the possibility that changing things up might be really beneficial. Now when you're working with someone and your kind of doing this reverse dieting, I don't know a better term to utilize. So, correct me if I'm, if you prefer something else.
Kylie Larson: [00:41:44] No, that's perfect.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:46] Yeah. So how long you go from being in a perhaps unintended caloric deficit to building back up? And how long do you stay in this maintenance phase before you transition again?
Kylie Larson: [00:41:58] This is my favorite question.
[laughter]
[00:42:00] So the longer the better, the longer the better. I used to say six months, but having been doing what I do now for about six years, I have a lot of data. My clients who stay in maintenance for a year, two years, have the best, most productive diet phases. So, this means we have to be really patient. This means we have to check instant gratification at the door, and this is a process.
[00:42:29] Most people won't do that the first time they go through their reverse diet. This is what happens with most clients. They do their reverse diet. They live in maintenance, maybe now, nine months, then they do a fat loss phase, but they were still really itching to get back into that fat loss phase.
[00:42:43] The second time around, they have a better understanding of how the process works, and they see other people's success too. You have to think too. If you truly do have weight to lose, and losing more weight is going to make you healthier, then, yes, you can go back to fat loss a little bit more quickly. But for those of us, you just kind of want to tighten things up. You got 5 pounds, 10 pounds to lose, so no one's looking at you at the grocery store and being like, “Cynthia really needs to go on a diet,”
[laughter]
[00:43:12] To all of those people, which, the longer you can stay in maintenance, you will actually get a productive fat loss phase. Because also, here's what you get to do in maintenance. You get to do the thing that we all want. You get to build muscle and burn fat at the same time. So, people struggle with maintenance in my experience, because they're like, “Well, I'm not making any progress,” but that's not true. You're making a ton of progress. You're getting stronger in the gym, you're building muscle, you're getting better habits, you're eating better quality food, you're improving your sleep routines, like this is when you can focus on all these things, but without the pressure of fat loss, because I find fat loss to be a little bit stressful, because all of a sudden now I have these expectations, and then that expectation, “Why isn't my body responding? Do I need to lower my things? Do I need to add cardio?” Like, I'm not immune to any of this, you guys. So, I cannot stress enough how beautiful it is to live in maintenance. And the longer the better, but minimum six to nine months.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:44:12] Well, that makes sense. And I think for so many people, you come off the holidays, you want to self-flagellate. It's like, “Okay, I've got it.” You know, how many people have said, myself included, “I got to get back on the wagon. I got to make sure I get back to taking care of myself and eating less holiday cookies and drinking more alcohol, getting back into eating nutrient dense foods.” Because ultimately, we're looking to honor our bodies, that's what we're trying to get to that point.
[00:44:40] I think that at 53, I would say maybe over the last five years, I probably feel like I'm in a good head space in terms of body composition, mindset around surrounding this, because certainly five years ago I lost 15 pounds, so I lost every bit of muscle. I mean, I lost so much muscle, almost to a point of being catastrophic, that it has taken a long time to build it back. And actually, now I'm back in another muscle building phase.
[00:45:07] For the benefit of listeners because you are so well read. One of the things that I like and appreciate about you, and we both share, you're always reading, you're always investing in yourself and investing in your clients. What are some of your favorite books or resources or mindset tools that you've been utilizing or maybe a favorite book you read this year that you feel like everyone that's listening to this podcast should be spending time reading?
Kylie Larson: [00:45:36] Okay, you may not think this is related, but it is so related. The book is Mother Hunger. Have you read this book?
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:45:43] I have not.
Kylie Larson: [00:45:45] Okay, so with all this stuff asking you to eat more, looking at your relationship with food and all of this, things come up, you guys, we all have stuff around food. Let's just be open about it.
[laughter]
[00:45:58] Mother Hunger helps address why we have some of these issues. It's about all the issues that we have as females, sometimes why we choose the wrong partners, all of this stuff. But I think it resonates with-- I just tell everyone to read it. It is one of the most powerful books I have ever, ever, ever read. Then my new favorite book is Essentialism by Greg Mckeown. Have you read that?
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:46:25] I have not.
Kylie Larson: [00:46:27] Oh, okay. Because you know how we tell clients to like reduce your stress, you got to lower your stress. And they're like, “But I have to do this and I have to do that. You got to get really clear on what you really have to do. And back to a previous point, we are now older. You care less about what people are saying. Let the young girls volunteer for the classroom. Let the gals in the 30s take care of that. You're 40, 50, make time for what you want to do.
[00:46:56] And Essentialism really teaches you how to do that and to be okay with it. You being who you are, saying no to social things that aren't serving you, pulling back from social media, I know everyone feels like they're going to miss out on something, but you're not going to miss out on anything. And I just see people, we're all wired so tight, and we're on fire, and I don't know how to get out of it. I'm working on it myself, but this is one of the ways, just pulling way back and that book is helping me do it big time with business, social media, social stuff. And I'm like, “Oh, there's other people out there like me.” Sometimes I feel like a weirdo, Cynthia, because I don't do much besides work and take care of myself and my family. That's all I have bandwidth for.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:47:39] No, I think boundaries are important, whether we acknowledge that or not. And I think, for me, one thing I've been working very diligently on, which is consistent with what you were talking about in this book, Essentialism, is that now my kids are in a space where one's off at college, one's a fairly independent driver, junior in high school, and I'm starting to get a sense of what an empty nest might look like. And it's both terrifying and exciting.
[00:48:06] And my husband and I have had a lot of weekends where we don't make plans, and we might just have like quiet Friday and Saturday nights. And I'm like, “I used to feel so much pressure to do so much socially, and now I'm very happy, very, very happy not having a lot of my agenda and just doing quiet stuff.”
[00:48:29] I mean, I have three dogs, which makes us sound like we're crazy. But there are, Friday, Saturday nights if we aren't going out with friends, we might very well be cooking in and watching a series on Netflix or Hulu or whatever. I think that's totally okay. I think all these kinds of contrived expectations, whether it's volunteering in your kids’ class and gosh, I did that for years. Sometimes I was room mom for both my kids. On my days off, I was like, “What was I thinking?” And I loved it because I got to see them. But I would have moments where I would be like, I really would be better served had I gone to the gym or if I had slept an extra hour, whatever it was. So, I love that you're always introducing me to different books, maybe books that weren't on my radar, and certainly ones that I think would be relevant to all of us.
Kylie Larson: [00:49:12] Well, and you said something just. We talked about changing your mind several times. And in a different book that I read earlier this year. It's called Think Again by Adam Grant.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:49:24] I'm reading it right now.
Kylie Larson: [00:49:26] Well right. And he says, “Being able to change your mind is a sign of intelligence.” So, like everyone, if you're locked into one way of thinking, like, just be aware of that. I'm constantly questioning myself and I think that's what's beautiful about doing what we do now for so long, Cynthia, we get to change our minds. If your program is still doing what it did in 2016, red flag.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:49:50] What I will tell you about that book by Adam Grant. I literally started reading it coming back from dropping off my oldest son. And my husband and I drove separately because I knew I needed the ugly cry all the way home, 3 hours home. And at the very beginning of the book, Adam Grant talks about firefighters. I believe, in Colorado and how there were 12 that-- I believe it was 12 that were dropped into this forest fire. And three of the 12 survived, which is incredibly tragic. But the three that survived thought beyond their training.
[00:50:18] Ironically enough, that same night, my son who's had food allergies his entire life, fought me about bringing his EpiPens. I mean, it was embarrassing. It was like this big scene. I don't need them. I won't need them. That night, my son bit into a protein bar without looking at the ingredient list. My son who's never needed to inject himself with epinephrine, recognized he was in trouble immediately, felt like his throat was closing. I promise this is relevant to this conversation. This is the kid who has been trained and taught about all the things, but he said something wasn't right. And so, he ran to the bathroom. He told his roommate to grab his EpiPen. He looked at his friend and said, “I'm in trouble. I need you to call 911.” And my son spent his first night of college in the emergency room at the local hospital.
[00:51:10] And at 5 o’clock in the morning, when they discharged him, after the ER physician chided him and said, “You could have died.” He walked 5 miles home back to the dorm because there were no Ubers, and he said to me, he said, “That was penance for being stupid.” I said, “No, you weren't stupid. We hadn't prepared you like we had prepared you, but we had not prepared you for the what if nothing else works, what do you do?” And he figured that out on his own. I mean, he recognized he was in trouble and had the resources and did it, and so much like, I don't mean to compare this to the firefighters, but the individuals that thought beyond the obvious, like they were talking about-- Adam Grant talks about how some of them weren't willing to drop their equipment and it was slowing them down, and that might have been why the fire overtook them and that there were people who really, like one firefighter turned around and used his fire flame into the fire to create a path to get away. And so, I just kind of reaffirm why I think that book is so important. It's just challenging us to think beyond our training or what we know and why that's so important. And it was literally that was the day I was listening to that part of the book, and then that happened.
Kylie Larson: [00:52:16] That's crazy.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:52:17] Yeah. So--
Kylie Larson: [00:52:18] I mean, all this stuff. As we're saying, “Hey, you might need to eat more and you might need to exercise less.” I know what you're thinking, “Hey, that's not going to work for me. That works for you. That doesn't work for me.” But if it's not working for you and it hasn't worked for you, you've got to try something different. The worst thing that will happen is it doesn't work. What you're doing already isn't working, so, let's try something different that may not work, but it will work, that's the difference.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:52:40] Yeah. No, I think it's important for all of us. And that's why I share very openly on the podcast. These are the things I'm doing differently because maybe there's someone else out there who's like, “You know, I've been doing fasting for a while. Maybe I'm not eating enough food, I'm struggling with body composition changes.” It could very well be that is the kind of missing link, if you will.
[00:53:00] Well, I always love our conversations, my friend. I'm so glad were able to make this happen. Please let listeners know how to find you, how to connect with you on social media, how to find your podcast as well.
Kylie Larson: [00:53:09] Oh, thank you. Yes, the best way to find me is on Instagram. My handle is @thekylielarson. And yeah, my podcast is called Far From Perfect with Kylie. And I like to talk about a lot of the same stuff that Cynthia likes to talk about, just mindset. And lately it's been not being on fire anymore, really, like, just all of us. Like, if we can just take care of ourselves and kind of chill out, not worry about what other people are doing, that's going to have a nice ripple effect out into everyone else. The world's crazy right now, and the best way you can change the world is by changing your little corner of the world, and that's what I'm focusing on this year.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:53:46] I love that. Thank you again, my friend.
Kylie Larson: [00:53:47] Yeah, you're welcome.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:53:51] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating in review, subscribe and tell a friend.
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