Today, I am excited to connect with Sarah Milken, the creator and host of the side-splittingly superb Flexible Neurotic podcast, dedicated to women recreating themselves in the second half of life. Before she started the podcast, Sarah received a PhD in educational psychology at the University of Southern California and then taught at their Graduate School of Education.
This episode gets a little more personal than usual as Sarah and I dive into the challenges of living in a half-empty nest. We explore how our relationships evolve, the challenges of children gaining independence, initiating and sustaining tough conversations, and staying connected with our significant other. We also look at people-pleasing and self-expansion in midlife and discuss whether or not we should opt for HRT.
Whether navigating an empty nest or wondering what lies ahead, you will love this conversation with Sarah Milken.
IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:
The emotional challenges parents tend to face when their children leave for college
Redefining your roles as a parent
How practicing self-care and finding new hobbies and interests helps fill the void
The difficulties associated with parenting independent children
Why you need to create a safe space for your children to share their concerns and challenges
Maintaining a relationship with your partner while navigating changing family dynamics
Why we must be open and honest about boundaries
The importance of being present and available for your children as they navigate their independence
The pros and cons of hormone replacement therapy
Embracing midlife as a time for self-discovery and self-care
“Boundaries have to be talked about. It's uncomfortable but it has to happen.”
-Sarah Milken
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Connect with Sarah Milken
Transcript:
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower, and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.
[00:00:30] Today, I had the honor of connecting with friend and colleague Sarah Milken. She's the creator and host of the wonderful and hilarious podcast The Flexible Neurotic. This is a podcast that is dedicated to women recreating themselves in the second half of their life. Prior to beginning this podcast, Sarah received her PhD in Educational Psychology at the University of Southern California and taught in the Graduate School of Education there as well.
[00:00:56] Today, we dove deep into the, “midlife sandwich,” talking about changing identities, our purpose, relevance, our relationships with our spouse, children and aging parents, the challenges of kids and their evolving autonomy, the impact of starting and maintaining difficult conversations, how to stay connected with our spouse, significant other or partner, the role of midlife people pleasing self-expansion. As Sarah refers to it, the hard and good, the impact of joy hunting and glimmer, and lastly, the role of HRT or not. I know you will enjoy this conversation as much as I did recording it. This is certainly a more personal podcast, diving deep into the process and evolution of being a half empty nest, which I know many of you are going through as well or have already gone through.
[00:01:49] I've been so looking forward to this conversation.
Sarah Milken: [00:01:52] I know me too.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:01:53] I think in many ways, Sarah, you capture exactly what women and moms are going through, navigating not just perimenopause and menopause and doing it in such a wonderfully authentic, fun, positive way. But I've watched the past year sending your son off to college and then me sending my oldest off to college and really feeling like this kindred connection, not just to you, but so many moms that have like shared with me their stories, what they're going through and feeling in many ways that this podcast represents women at this stage of life, but it also represents like the emotional aspects. How our role is changing as a mom and parent? I'm so very grateful to have you here today and for listeners to know that Dr. Sarah's actually en route to parents weekend to see her son. So she's joining us actually from the East Coast, which I was feeling a little guilty because I kept thinking you're on West Coast time and it's really early for you to be joining a podcast I'm very--
Sarah Milken: [00:03:01] But I was doing it anyway. [Cynthia laughs] The New York piece of this was just an add on at the last minute before Philadelphia, so I was going to do it for you, Cynthia.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:03:10] Well, I appreciate that. Let's talk about all the feelings and the things that women start feeling as their children, like, this is what we are supposed to be doing. We are supposed to be creating, nurturing, endeavoring, loving these little beings to get them to a point where they become independent enough that they leave home, whether it's to go to college or trade school or whatever it is they're leaving for. Why is it so hard? And I say this, you know I've worked really hard as a parent to make sure I have really healthy boundaries with my kids, that I allow them to foster a degree of independence and supporting their needs and the things they want to do and not making it about me. Like, how many people from our generation-- People say, I didn't really want to go into medicine, but I did because my mom wanted me to, or I didn't really want to go into law, but my dad wanted me to. Being very different and trying to support individually each one of our children and the things that they're interested in. Why is it so damn hard?
Sarah Milken: [00:04:13] Well, first of all, I want to thank you for having me. You're one of my favorites. Congratulations on your 9 million downloads. Amazing.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:04:21] Really exciting.
Sarah Milken: [00:04:22] So good. It's so inspiring to have women like you in the space doing amazing things. So thank you for that and thank you for having me. Why is this so hard? Well, do you have two hours?
[laughter]
[00:04:36] No. Do you have two weeks? I think for me, the way I have viewed this whole thing is kind of like the midlife sandwich. It's like the perfect storm of, “Oh, my God.” Your changing identity piece, you're going from a kind of a manager mom role to a consultant role, you're kind of pushed off to the side. You're like a little bit of the mistress instead of the main character. [Cynthia laughs] I think kind of losing that main character energy is really hard. Then the next layer of the sandwich, you have your own psychological, physical, physiological stuff going on with menopause and perimenopause, where you kind of don't know where you are half the time, you're not sure how you feel. Every day is a little bit of a lottery. Like, some days you wake up, you feel like a million bucks. Other days you wake up and you're like, “Do I have the flu, what's happening here?”-
[laughter]
[00:05:34] -And you're like, “Do I need some electrolytes?” Like, you're not sure exactly what's going on. Then I think you bring in the purpose piece. And I think the purpose piece is so different for everyone because I think there are women with full blown careers like yourself, where women who are stay-at-home moms like I have been for the last 10,000 years, soon turned podcaster on the side. I think in some ways that could be a little bit different of a feeling. Not to say that you don't have the same, “emptiness feelings,” but for a good six, eight hours a day, your mind is locked in on your job and what you're doing.
[00:06:14] But I think if you are a stay-at-home mom especially and you are wondering where your structure has gone and then you begin to sort of doubt your relevance because your relevance was based on the structure of your kid’s rhythm and day and that's suddenly gone. So you wake up thinking, “Okay, yeah, there's the dishwasher, okay, yeah, there are errands, okay, but the main structure of your day is kind of gone.” And then I think then there's the spouse piece. That's like another layer of the sandwich. If you still have a spouse or you're divorced or all these kinds of things, that piece of having your kids be part of your, “entertainment” is gone.
[00:07:00] So it's you and your spouse and you're like, “Wow.” And I think we had a little taste of that because our kids went to sleepaway summer camp for, I don't know, maybe three or four summers for seven weeks. And my husband and I would look at each other and be like, “Okay, what are we doing now?” [Cynthia laughs] So I think the spouse is definitely another layer. I think the hobby piece is another layer. I think it's sort of like whether you have a, “job or career or not.” I think this is sort of the timeframe when people start dipping their toe into hobbies and I'm not a hobby person. And I'm sure we can get into that later, into the podcast. So that's been really hard for me because my husband is a hobby person and I'm like, “Wait for me.” [Cynthia laughs] And none of the things he's doing are things that I want to be doing.
[00:07:47] And then I think, you know the-- I'm not going to say the last layer, but another meaty piece of the midlife sandwich and the perfect storm is definitely the aging parents’ piece. And you're sort of in this hormone mix of yourself. Your kids’ hormones are still going. Obviously, they're figuring out their place in college. Then you have your parents. And like two weeks ago I had two parents who were having medical things happening at the same time. And I was like, “Is this really happening?” Like, I'm actually suffocating here. And I think just knowing-- I think part of the reason why my podcast and my platform work is because of the relatability factor and because you want to know you're not alone and that you're not crazy. And whether you're a stay-at-home mom or you're a career mom, you have those feelings and they're real. And knowing that you're not alone is so essential.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:08:45] I couldn't agree more. And it's interesting. Until eight years ago, I still worked as a nurse practitioner for a large cardiology group and I only worked part time. And it was so part time that my schedule, if I were to tell you, was absolutely ridiculous. But they kept accommodating me. And my husband had a crazy, predominantly international travel schedule. It was the only way to make all these things work. And so I kind of humbly look back and I remember I always felt like it was easier. Even though I'd have like, crashing patients and deal with emergencies, it was easier for me many times to go to work because I could just focus one thing at a time versus, the carpool, the getting the kids out of the bus, dealing with the afternoon activities and until they were able to bathe themselves separately, dinner, bath time, reading books, bedtime, and that cycle of life. When I look back, there were years where I just don't-- I remember things, but it was so chaotically busy. And that's how I choose to find the reframe. When I think about perimenopause and menopause, one of the blessings is that I'm forced to think about things more thoughtfully because I have the time to be able to do that. Whereas for many years it was just a blur, like a complete -
Sarah Milken: [00:10:02] It's like a hamster wheel.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:10:03] -Yes, yes. And so when I talk to women that are in that hamster wheel and they'll very openly talk about how exhausted they are, and I say to them, “I promise you there's going to come a time where there's no more carpool because your kids are driving independently or they're off to college or your role, as you mentioned, you go from being parental to being you're in this coach consultant role.” And it happens slowly and kind of innocuously, but yet all of a sudden, you're on the other side of it and you're like, “Wow, I'm so humbled. I'm so glad that I was a very present parent.” But, wow, if I had really known how quickly this was going to go by, I would have savored it a whole lot more. And it's not that I didn't, but it's just retrospectively, I'm like, “Wow.” I look at photos and I'm sure you do this too. And every woman listening that has kids, you look at photos and it brings you back to when they were 4 and 6.
Sarah Milken: [00:10:58] Oh, my gosh. Just my home screen, look at this. Like, it's just blurred, but it's like, it's my kids at 8 years old.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:11:05] Yeah. I have that on my phone as well. Like, a picture will pop up when one of them is 6, and I'm like, “Oh,” a little bit of an oxytocin boost. I'm like, “Oh, they’re bonded.”
Sarah Milken: [00:11:15] Oh, my God. I know, that's why everyone's like, “I love your panda memes on your Instagram.” It's like you're craving that oxytocin kind of squishy feeling.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:11:25] Yes.
Sarah Milken: [00:11:26] That's why I'm like parents’ weekend. I'm like, “Okay, I'll only give him one hug a day, only one.” I don't want to annoy him, but he's actually pretty good about it.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:11:35] Yeah. I actually fear more when my youngest goes off because he is fiercely independent. When I say fiercely, I rarely get hugs. He's not as affectionate as my older son. And we've come down to “I want to respect his desire not to hug me as frequently as I would like, so we've come up with this kind of bro.” We tap knuckles and that's our sign. And I was telling someone, “I grew up where my parents expected me to hug relatives, hug family friend.” And I said I was very deliberate to say to my kids, like, “If you don't want to hug someone and that includes your parents, that's okay.” So when my youngest hugs me, I absorb all of that, and I'm like, “Okay, I might not get another hug.”
[laughter]
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:12:24] But I'm going to take it. And I'm just going to feel like it's a win.
Sarah Milken: [00:12:28] That's how I feel about my daughter, to be honest with you. And she and I are really close, but she's just not like a hug it out kind of person.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:12:36] I feel like they're like cats, it's like, on their terms.
Sarah Milken: [00:12:38] Yes. On their terms. This morning, she sent me a text. She's like, “I know you're going on a podcast. You're going to rock it. Love you.” But then if she was in front of me, she would have just like kept going, you know what I mean?
[laughter]
[00:12:52] You're like this person just waiting for little crumbs. But I understand my kids are both independent, and I raised them like that. At a certain point, I was like, “I'm not managing your calendar with your dental cleanings. You have a credit card. You have a phone number. I'm not going to spend the whole day texting you, calling the doctor's office and trying to find appointment time that works. You have a car too.” [Cynthia chuckles] so I've created these beastly independent kids. Then sometimes I'm like, “Have you forgotten me? What's happening here?” But at the same time, I call it baked and cooked. It's like I baked and cook these amazing souls who are independent and who don't need me every step of the way. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't ache a little bit. And I just want women to know that it is normal.
[00:13:49] And believe me sometimes there's the ugly cry. And I remember dropping off my son two years ago. He's in his second year of college and I didn't cry at first. And then I came home and my husband had to go on a business trip and I was like, “Holy moly, what has happened here?” And I thought to myself, “Okay, there's a doughnut, there's a cry, there's a whatever.” And I always say to women “embrace it,” because you're not going to be like that forever. But if you don't lean into how you're feeling and give yourself a second, like you have just spent 18, 20 years raising this human being, and now that human being is not part of your everyday rhythm, that's a really big hit. And there's a grieving process, I think. I mean, it sounds really negative. But it's more of just seeing it psychologically. Like at first it was like, “I'm in denial, this is not happening,-
[laughter]
[00:14:51] -this is not the last prom, this is not the last baseball game.” But then you drop the kid off and then you move into the self-acceptance stage of the process. And then a few months go by and you're like, “Okay, I got this.” Then you see your kid maybe at a fall break or parents’ weekend, and that feels really good. And then you go back to your house and back to your every day of like-- so it's an ebb and flow and knowing that that's all part of the process and that you're not just crazy. And I think the not crazy part in menopause and perimenopause, where we already feel like cuckoo berry [chuckles] is really helpful. And knowing that other women are going through the same exact thing. It's like the midlife sandwich on fire. And the layers are just dripping, dripping, dripping and some layers are dry as we know.
[laughter]
Sarah Milken: [00:15:49] Fix those dry layers.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:15:52] Yes, we can. It's important to do so. So I think for listeners it's helpful to know that we are all processing this in our own way. Like, I drove separately to drop my son off. My husband drove in one car and I drove in another because I had the big ugly hyper-ventilatory cry on the way home. And by the time I got home, I was like, “Okay, I got a lot of it out, it's a big adjustment, it's really about redefining our relationships. That's ultimately what it comes down to. We talk about how our relationships with our parents evolve. I think that for many of us, like sending a kid off to college, you're like, “Oh, now I have a sense of what my parents probably went through sending me off to college.” And for me, we had an ironically, the same month my son was graduating from high school and my niece, we had three parents hospitalized.
Sarah Milken: [00:16:45] Oh.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:16:46] My stepmother, my father, my mother-in-law and I was like, “I think I need to put everyone in bubble wrap.” Now I lost my dad in the beginning of June after a brief, you know he had an accident and then based on his wishes,-
Sarah Milken: [00:16:59] I’m so sorry.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:17:00] -we carried those out.” Yeah, it's been an interesting last couple of months. But what it has reaffirmed for me is making sure that my kids know how we feel about them, that they're loved and supported. The first night my son was in college. This is my kiddo that got diagnosed with food allergies when he was 2 back at a time when--
Sarah Milken: [00:17:24] I have one of those too.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:17:26] Yep. Back when food allergies, no one really made accommodations. Even as a clinician, it was a scary thing to navigate. He didn't outgrow them. And he fought me hard when he went to college about taking his EpiPens. The irony being that night, where did he spend that first night of college? In the ER with anaphylactic reaction, nearly intubated and almost taken to the ICU. And so when he called me at 6 o’clock in the morning, I was like, “This is not good.” And so I was as calm as I could be because I wanted him to feel like he could share with me what had happened. And he said, “Mom, if you hadn't left my EpiPens where they were, things might have been different.”
Sarah Milken: [00:18:10] Oh, my God.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:18:11] He knew he was in trouble, so-
Sarah Milken: [00:18:12] You just gave me chills. My daughter had anaphylactic episode in Paris this summer, and I literally thought I was going to lose my mind. There's nothing like that feeling of like-- and she had her EpiPen with her, but sometimes she doesn't-
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:18:26] That's exactly how he is.
Sarah Milken: [00:18:28] -It's just not okay. And as a parent, I always struggled with-- I mean, you can generalize this outside of just having food allergies with kids, but it's a control thing. And I think as our kids get older, we have to give up more and more control, whether it's allergies and EpiPens or classes they choose or girlfriends or boyfriends or all the things. Locus of control changes so much. And especially if you're a type A mom or a type A person, you're like, “But I told you so.” [Cynthia laughs] And you really have to pull back on that because otherwise they just resent you and you just become this micromanager from hell. And so I've really, like there's so many times where I want to send that text. Like, Jake, “I know you're feeling kind of gross right now, and maybe you're getting sick. Have you been taking your vitamin D?” And then I just don't. Because then he pulls back and I don't hear from him for five days. Like, “Oh, if I start a conversation with her, it's never going to end.”
[laughter]
[00:19:37] So it's kind of managing that changing locus of control. When they were in your house, it was so much easier to micromanage, but from a distance, it's like, “Hey, at a certain point you're your own person and you have to decide whether having that EpiPen with you is something you're choosing to do because I can't be in your pocket.”
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:20:01] Yeah. I've always said that, “I have two male children and they are as different as different could be.” And I know where I can push and where I can't. And I think as they have navigated being teens and certainly having one at college, I agree with you that a lot of-- And I actually told him this, I wrote him a letter when Jack went to college and just talking about how proud I was of him and how I made a big effort to raise my kids very differently than I grew up and how important it has been to me that, he feel close and comfortable and our kids tell us a lot. And I always feel grateful for that. I'm like, “I want to be the parent. “And sometimes I'm biting the inside of my cheek just like I did when patients would tell me outrageous things. I was like, “Don't change your facial expressions. You're a ninja.”
[laughter]
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:20:56] Because I want them to feel comfortable, but it's also being very clear about the fact that they are autonomous for the most part. Not that they're financially on their own, but they are in many ways navigating these. This new felt independence and relationships and peer to peer things. And it's been interesting to me that, I always say, like, “You know your moral compass.” Ultimately, we've done a really good job investing in you with making sure you understand the difference between right and wrong and being high integrity and advocating for others. And ultimately you have to make the decisions. You have to live with the repercussions of your decisions as well. We can't fix everything. And that is, for me, one of those things where it's so easy for us sometimes to like, swoop in and fix stuff. And one of the things I've had to conscientiously do as my business has gotten busier and there's been more travel, is I don't have the emotional bandwidth to micromanage in any capacity. So I pick my battles really conscientiously. But what's interesting is child number two, who's fiercely independent. I'll just keep emphasizing that.
Sarah Milken: [00:22:13] [laughs] Want to hang out with my daughter?
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:22:14] Yes. They probably would be buddies, kindred spirits.
Sarah Milken: [00:22:17] Oh, my gosh. Everyone's like, “She's going to run the world.” And it's not even like-- It's just in this like super confident “I got this” kind of way.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:22:26] Yeah. Well and it's interesting because he is my kid that had an opportunity to study overseas this summer, and that reaffirmed for him. He was like, “Mom, it was the coolest thing ever.” Well, he thought it was cool because he was surrounded by a very diverse group of students, which, number one, he loved that. Number two, he was in another country. Number three, they treat teenagers differently in the UK than they do in the United States. And so he felt like, “I'm being treated more like an adult and I actually really value that.” And then, he'll come home and say, “Well, it's so silly here that I can drive a car, but I can't legally drink alcohol, as an example till I’m 21, but overseas, they thought I was 18, so I got served in the pubs.” [Sarah laughs] And he thought that was like the greatest thing ever.
Sarah Milken: [00:23:15] And you're like, “Welcome back to your other life.”
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:23:18] Correct. Exactly, exactly. It's like, “I think I might want to go to college overseas.” And I was like, “Let's do one thing at a time.” But as they navigate this fierce independence and, becoming-- it's like they kind of check in with us. Like, they live in our orbit, but they check in with us kind of on their timetable and that takes a lot. Like, the one thing I tell people is if you have like a five-year-old, they don't go from being 5 to 19. It's like the process is slow and incremental all the way along. And then all of a sudden you realize it's the last football game or it's the last lacrosse game, or it's the high school graduation, and you're like, “Wow, that just went by in like a blink of an eye.”
Sarah Milken: [00:23:56] I know. There's so many different components to it. It's like you've raised them to have these wings. And you're like, “I want your wings to be so big, so confident, so broad.” And then you're like, “Oh, my God, maybe I overwinged them.” [Cynthia laughs] and my son not right now, but both of my kids have had very big relationships. My daughter right now has a very serious boyfriend who went off to college and this and that. That brings in a whole other layer to the midlife sandwich is, “What are my boundaries? What are her boundaries?” Certain things obviously have to be talked about, but it's uncomfortable, but it has to happen.
[00:24:43] She and I are like, you know, kind of side to side figuring out how to negotiate those boundaries. And obviously everything that's happening is healthy and normal and part of the lifespan, but as a parent, it's not always easy being in those shoes. I was in those shoes at one point and I tried to remind my husband of that too. I'm like, “You and I started dating at 19 and we've known each other since ninth grade.” Don't forget how easily and quickly all of this can happen. And I think that that has definitely been like another piece for us with kids having boyfriends and girlfriends and traveling and all of these things and sharing rooms and this and that, all this stuff. It's like, “Wow, how did I get here?” [chuckles]
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:32] Yeah. No, no. I think about the fact that my older son, for about a year and a half, had a lovely girlfriend that were very fond of, and they both went to two different colleges and so they broke up this summer. And they did it the way an 18- and 17-year-old would go about doing it. And we still, of course, think the world of her. And I'm sure that her family thinks the world of Jack, but during that process of, you know, when he started dating and then again having those conversations that all parents have to have with your kids about being careful and conscientious and being thoughtful in the way that you go about things. My son told me a lot and I actually think that's healthy. I didn't feel that way about my parents. When I was growing up, oh my god-
Sarah Milken: [00:26:17] Neither did I.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:26:18] You didn't even admit you were dating, let alone doing anything else. It was a different time, definitely a different time.
Sarah Milken: [00:26:26] Yeah. I for sure did not have those conversations with my parents. I had a very serious boyfriend in high school other than my husband. And I really made that commitment that as awkward and uncomfortable as it feels as a parent, if you're not going to have those conversations, YouTube or somebody else is. And if you want to control the narrative, it is on you to control that narrative. Now, look, my husband is like a potted plant in the room. [Cynthia laughs] I'm like, “Are you going to say anything?” But I think for him, it's just too awkward, but he's part of the conversation. He just adds on to it, but he's not the one who's going to initiate or generate. But I think parents, as you and your husband, it's like everybody has a different role.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:27:18] Yes.
Sarah Milken: [00:27:19] And you got to pick your lane, stay in your lane and deal with it. So all the sex stuff, that's all my lane. And my husband just pretends that he's part of the lane. He's like, “yeah, yeah, yeah.” I found with my daughter, the easiest way to have those conversations is through text. And while I'm driving the car, most of the time, even though she has a driver's license, like, once in a while she's in the car in the front seat, and I'm driving, and I kind of bring things up that are super awkward while I'm driving. So we're not eye to eye, face to face, and she's hearing what I'm saying. She may not necessarily be responding, but I know she's hearing it, so those are two of my strategies with her. My son is totally different. I can just go head on, nail it. This is what I have to say. Is this happening? Are you doing this? How does this feel? Da-da-da. I don't have to dance around and do a whole pantomime show. My daughter is a whole pantomime show. So it's like, I have to be strategic with that. But again, somebody's got to do it.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:28:33] Yeah. Well, I think a lot of those conversations rest on my shoulders because the thought process is you are the healthcare provider, therefore you have had this conversation with many, many patients, which is, in fact, true, although different when you're talking to your child. I find that at least with my oldest, if I can get him by himself, we can have direct conversations where I just say what I need to say and then he responds. And I'm like, “Hey, as long as you're careful, let's have the conversation.” Even having him in college, I can remember there was a whole funny conversation about condoms. And I said, “Your dad and I can buy a box.” Because we think that, you've got a male roommate, and I think safe sex is important.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:29:19] And he was like, “Mom, I've got It.” [Sarah chuckles] I don't need you--
Sarah Milken: [00:29:21] That's my son's favorite thing to say to me.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:29:24] I got it. I got it. He's like, “Mom, I've got it.” And yet my other son is completely different. He's like the cat, has to be the right time, on his terms, [Sarah laughs] then he's willing to have the conversation. But like a cat, very selective about when and where and how. And it probably depends on the lunar phase of the moon, like, “What's going on there too.” He's so mercurial. When you think about that word, it's such a great word.
Sarah Milken: [00:29:25] It's the perfect word. It's like my daughter like times a thousand.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:29:55] Yes, that is. Maybe it's second child syndrome. Maybe that's something we need to talk about.
Sarah Milken: [00:29:58] Yeah, maybe it is. But, what's interesting about her though, is all ask questions, she kind of doesn't answer, whatever. But then she has a UTI and guess who's knocking on my door at midnight? And I'm like, “I'm happy that I have the closeness with her that's enough for her to come to me.” Sometimes it's a little late where I'm like, “Dude, you knew this two days ago.” You were complaining about this two days ago and now we're going to do it at midnight. And you're not 18 yet, so you can't go to urgent care to get that quick UTI, bladder infection test. So I have to go with you tomorrow morning, that's annoying. And I have 47 other things, but I am appreciative that at the end of the day, she knows where the line is,where it's not just I'm not going to tell my mom because I'm so embarrassed. It's really annoying that I have to tell her, but I know she's going to help me and we're going to solve this, so I'm going to knock on her door.”
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:31:00] Yeah. And isn't that ultimately what we want? We want our kids to feel like it's a safe place to come to talk about things that are going on with them. Ultimately, that's the goal. Let's talk a little bit about relationships with our significant others, our husband, our spouses, our partners. How do we stay connected in midlife? You mentioned your husband has hobbies. You mentioned you're also not, like a hobby gal. So what are the things that you think are important from a high level perspective for couples to stay connected as we're navigating these newfound relationships, these coaching roles that we have with our children.
Sarah Milken: [00:31:39] My husband and I have been together for a 1000 years. We've been together since 19, never broken up, all through college. That's like a lot of hairstyles, a lot of bodies, a lot of weights, a lot of pregnancy, whatever. And I think at the end of the day like I said before, I think we're both good at really different things. And I think that if you haven't found it already, that it is a time to figure out who's good at what and not press each other's buttons on things that you don't have to. For example, packing. I'm an overpacker. I will always be an over packer.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:22] You must watch her IG stories. [Sarah laughs] She does such a beautiful job. You do such a good job of sharing, but then it's funny. And so it's like you're one of the few people I actively look for your stories because there's always some nugget of humor or, you'll share things, but you do it in a way that it makes you kind of chuckle. You're like, “Sarah has such a good reframe for all these things that happen in life.”
Sarah Milken: [00:32:46] Well, it's like the cluster, so that's an example. So he's OCD, I'm OCD about other things, I'm an over packer, he's an under packer. We joke around about it and we make fun of each other on Instagram or I make fun of him or whatever. But at the same time, it's like, even on this trip coming here, he knew I was totally exhausted. I had my parents with their medical staff, all these things going on. My daughter is a senior in high school, so now we're dealing with college applications and, you know what a good time that is. And he knew I was just spent. So he literally said to me, “I know you're going to have a hard time packing. I know that stresses you out. I'm going to bring an extra bag for you just in case you need it.” And I know that sounds really dumb, but for someone who stresses out about something like packing or whatever it is, to have a spouse step in when you're like, really down and out and just be like, “Hey, I got you.” It feels really good because he's not always like that. [chuckles]
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:33:50] [chuckles] We're all human, right? Ultimately, we are all human.
Sarah Milken: [00:33:53] Yeah. And so I think figuring out what everyone's lane is, what their strengths are. My husband is like the bill payer. He would never let me get into QuickBooks. He's all over that. He's like, “No, you would totally mess it up.” I would be like, everything would be bouncing all over the place. But with healthcare and medical and kids and all of that stuff, he's like, “I don't even think he knows what's happening.” I'm like, “Okay, everybody in the family's doing a stool sample.” He's like, “What?” [Cynthia chuckles] And my kids are like, “What?” But it's just, that's my lane. And he respects that, so he goes along with it. So I think one point is figuring out your lanes if you haven't figured them out.
[00:34:36] Another thing is with the hobbies, I'm never going to play golf with my husband. He was a Division 1 baseball player. He's good at every sport and I'm a complete spaz attack, so that's never going to happen. But I would say that, we go walking a lot together. And I know that sounds really basic, but it's true. It's one of the only sort of athletic-ish exercise-ish activities that we can do together until we find something else. I don't know how to play pickleball, I've played once, but I could never play with him. He's like a professional tennis player too. You know what I mean, [Cynthia laughs] so I don't even bother. But I will say that we have a date lunch every week, every Friday mostly. It's not because, oh my God, we're so busy at night, but it's more just like we still have one kid at home. She's doing college application. She's home at night grinding. And we want to be there for her even though she doesn't speak to us. [Cynthia laughs] It's being that grounded presence in the house. It's like being that steady, steady energy that your kid knows if they want to talk to you, you're in the house. So we try to do the date lunch on Friday. I think that that's really helpful because we're not tired. We're not spent. It's like our own time. And I think another thing that's really helpful is he's a really good planner. He'll look up what concerts are coming up or whatever.
[00:36:09] A couple weeks ago he was like, “Billy Joel's in LA. Do you want to go?” And I was like, “Sure.” Then I invited another couple friend and they were like, “It's so cool that your husband picks these activities for you guys to do.” Even here in New York, he's like, “There's nothing playing except for Back to the Future.” I'm like, “Well, let's talk about that.” [Cynthia [laughs] Like Back To The Future On Broadway. But my point is having someone in the relationship who's a glimmer, if you will like a glimmer activity person planner. He's a little like the cruise ship director. “Let's find something cool to do while we're there.” And I think 90% of satisfaction, I think there's some quote about that is, the anticipatory peace of life.
[00:37:02] It's not just going to the Billy Joel concert. It's like, “Oh, I know that I'm going to the Billy Joel concert this weekend or next weekend. I'm going to think about that, that sounds fun. What songs do I remember? What am I going to wear? Is it going to be hot? I'm perimenopausal. Is it going to be cold in there?” And so I think the anticipation when your life feels so hamster wheel like those breaks in the routine are so nice. I didn't need to be in New York. I planned on recording with you in LA, but we were going to go straight to Philadelphia from LA. But my husband had a meeting come up in New York and he goes, “Hey, do you want to come?” And I thought, “I'm kind of really tired, but sure.”
[00:37:45] And I'm so glad I did because it does break the routine and it does break the monotony. My daughter was busy with something else, so I didn't feel guilty leaving her. I thought, “Okay, this is my glimmer in the month. This is it. We're doing New York and Philadelphia, here we come.” And I think having those anticipations is nice.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:38:07] Well, and you really speak to this division of labor. I'll share one with you. I've been an entrepreneur for eight years and up until that point in our marriage and with the kids, I did all the meal prep, I did all the cooking. But when I made this transition, what fell off my radar was meal prep and thinking ahead and having boys who just eat a voluminous amount of food as I know, you know. My husband kind of stepped in, and he's an engineer by training. He loves automaticity, he likes structure and so now he is the head cook-
Sarah Milken: [00:38:40] Oh, my God.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:38:40] -and meal prep guy.
Sarah Milken: [00:38:41] I'm so jealous.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:38:43] Yeah. And I tell people, like I have to share that, because I think it's one of the reasons why I can function the way I do is because someone else is thinking ahead. Like, he'll actually say to me on Saturday nights, “What do you want me to prep for the week for you?” [crosstalk] And I was like, “Okay, I want bison burgers. I want slaw.” He'll make homemade slaw for me. And there's all different variations or I'll do some cauliflower and broccoli, and maybe you get egg roll in a bowl. And that just makes our life so much easier because there's one less thing to have to think about. Now, I acknowledge everyone has different things, but I love that your husband's that anticipatory planner. I'm the trip planner, but I may not be the one that's thinking about the concerts.
[00:39:23] Probably, 18 months ago, we went to see Foo Fighters. So the four of us as a family went to see Foo Fighters and it was amazing. And it was like the first concert we had done with the kids, like a real concert. And I kept saying, “How cool is this that our kids are having this experience, all of us together?” But I think it's so important to break up monotony. I think it's very easy to get into I call it Groundhog Day. I mean, not that it's not novel to say that--
Sarah Milken: [00:39:49] Yes, it is. It's like Groundhog Day, hamster wheel. It's literally just spinning in the same place.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:39:56] Yeah. And so I think it's important to have some novelty to break things up. And we've put off certain trips. We've said, “Until the kids are in college, we're not going to go.” My husband's traveled all over the world, but I haven't been to Asia yet. I haven't been to Australia yet. And I said, “Those are the bigger trips. That'll be longer trips. So we're going to wait till they're in college.” And so I keep saying, “Okay, first trip is going to be to X. And I'm kind of the trip planner. But My husband tends to be the one that we've had this backyard build that was supposed to be a four-month build that is-- [crosstalk]
Sarah Milken: [00:40:26] I've been watching that on Instagram.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:40:27] Oh, it's so painful. And it's just we ended up firing our contractor and now we've had to bring in different experts to fix things and finalize it. I'm hoping it's going to be relatively done to actually start podcasting by the end of the month. But he has been the one that has handled this guy. Because I view it from the lens of, I'm a small business owner, I know how to treat people. This is not right. So I have a very strong kind of moral compass about integrity and showing up for people.
Sarah Milken: [00:40:58] So do I.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:40:59] Unfortunately, if I had handled the contractor, things probably would have ended sooner. But my husband's a nicer person, I mean, really--
Sarah Milken: [00:41:06] So is mine.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:07] He's more diplomatic.
Sarah Milken: [00:41:08] I think he's more measured.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:10] Yes. Diplomatic.
Sarah Milken: [00:41:11] Yeah. He can space out being pissed off over two weeks and 10 different emails and texts. And mine would be just like a 40-line text [Cynthia laughs] and then kind of a full combustion at the end. I know this sounds not great to say, but I think sometimes when you're working with a male contractor or subcontractor, vendor, whatever, sometimes having male to male just changes the dynamic a little bit, for better or for worse. So sometimes I'll just say to my husband, “I know this sounds weird, but can you--” And I know I'm a really strong person, obviously smart, and I can handle most things, but I think this is going in a way where I need like a male voice. And he'll be like, “Sure, no problem.”
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:57] Yeah. No, I mean, just like when I buy cars, typically I bring my husband because I feel like that just reaffirms. And I always say, “I'm the one making the decision.” However, having him here ensures that the person across the table, who's generally a male, knows that there's a tough negotiator that's here as well. [crosstalk] So whether they have a pejorative thought process about women and car buying, that's why my husband handled the contractor. I was like, “He doesn't want to hear from me. My head's about ready to blow off.” In fact, that was the running joke for months was that this guy didn't want to deal with me. I was like better off doing it with my husband.
Sarah Milken: [00:42:31] 100%. They're like running for the hill.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:34] Exactly.
[laughter]
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:35] I was like, “I'm from New Jersey. I'm a straight shooter. I'm very direct and it can be very off putting for people.” Especially because I think there's this, I don't want to say prejudice about women in general, but that many of us aren't direct, concise. And I guess many of the reasons, it just reaffirms why I'm that way is working in medicine, if you can't communicate effectively, concisely, quickly, you're going to lose people. And it's like, especially when there's an emergency going on and you have to get people to help you. It's like you don't need the 10-minute version, you need the 30-second version about what you need, how you need it immediately-- [crosstalk
Sarah Milken: [00:43:11] Believe me, I'm all over that. Yeah, totally. And my husband can do the more finessed, like I said staged emails. I'm like, “There's no fucking—" excuse my language, bleep me. There's no staging here. It's like, “Let's just get this done. We got to get to the finish line here.” But I think sometimes it's like the difference between like a man and a woman. Well, maybe some women, I don't know, I tend to be less measured.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:43:37] Here's the thing about middle age that I know we probably have talked about because physiologically, estrogen tends to be a people pleasing hormone. And the one thing as a reform people pleaser that I have noticed is I cannot speak my mind. I really struggle. Like there are times where I'll just say, there was someone I hired for an event that was doing my hair and makeup and it was like this hedging, going back and forth and I finally said, “Could I provide you with some constructive feedback as a client?” [Sarah laughs] And my husband was like, “You didn't?” And I was like, “I did.” I just said, “If you're concerned about the 2.9% that PayPal takes out of your fees, increase your rates.” And she was like, “What?” And I was like, “I'm totally serious.” If it is that big of a lift, then just increase your pricing. And she was like, “Oh, I hadn't thought about that.”
Sarah Milken: [00:44:23] That's such a me thing to do. [Cynthia laughs] And my husband will always be like, “Can you just save it?” I'm like, sometimes I actually can' like when you're in a restaurant, I don't know if this is a midlife thing, but sometimes the music is just too loud and there's people who will sit and not say a word about it. And then there's Sarah and Sarah's like, “Excuse me, could you just lower the music 2 dB so that I can enjoy my meal.” And they won't always do it, but I can't just sit in the seat and take it as it is. And it's not about being high maintenance. It's about like just showing up as who you are and asking for what you need. It was sort of like my husband saying, “I got the extra bag for you without me saying it because he could see it on my face like she's struggling, she's tired, she's totally wiped out here.” [chuckles] But I think that midlife, as hard as it is and as hard as it feels on a lot of days, it is an amazing time to check in with yourself, take some of your extra time and your [unintelligible 00:45:32] that you would focus on your kids, to focus on yourself. And I know that that feels weird because sometimes people are like, “Well, what did you like to do when you were younger? And what's your purpose?” And all of these things and sometimes you don't have the answers and that's okay. And I sort of see this time as a self-expansion time. You don't need to know what your hobbies are right now. You don't need to know what your life's purpose is right now. But just say to yourself, “Hey, I'm here. I'm engaged in myself. I'm here to live the best life I can live.”
[00:46:07] And as we know longevity-- we're living longer. So the second half of life is a powerful time to rewrite stories. And if you weren't a main character in the first half, maybe you're becoming a main character of your story in the second half. And what do we need to do to get to that main character energy? And main character energy is not selfish. And I think a lot of women our whole lives are taught that midlife character energy is selfish. And I'm here to say midlife self-obsession is approved. It's not narcissism, it's taking care of yourself, getting your needs met and having a good time while you do it. And we already physiologically sometimes feel yucky. And I think that a lot of women, including myself, have this notion that someone or something is going to come and rescue us. Believe me, I never said this, but looking back on it retrospectively I thought, like, “Oh, I got a PhD, I decided to become a stay-at-home mom. My husband really appreciates that. He's going to come and rescue me with this like midlife purpose and passion idea, hobby/business for me.”
[00:47:26] No, he's not doing that. Like he has his own life, his own business, his own things. Finding those things is your own responsibility. And that's really hard. If I could have found it on Amazon, I would have paid Prime. [Cynthia laughs] I would have had it messenger to me, but no one else can do that work except for you. And I think sometimes it feels like a lot. Because if you're looking for a pivot, a rebrand, a new purpose for relevance, and you're trying to get to the 100 g of protein and the 10,000 steps and the vitamin D supplementation and the B12 methylated, blah, blah, blah. It's a lot of things and we can't do it all at the same time and we can't do it perfectly. So the way I see it is midlife is hard and good and things that are hard will always be good. And things that you want that are good will always be hard. And what are your micro steps that day to get to your good of the hard? if that makes sense.
[00:48:36] Like you may not get all your steps in that day, you may not get any steps in that day, but maybe you got yourself 3 L of water in, maybe you remembered your morning supplements, but not your evening supplements and kind of figuring out what your good enough is. And my good enough is different from your good enough. Like you might get to that 100 g of protein six or seven days a week. I might only hit 3 or 4, but maybe that's my good enough, but maybe I hit something else really well. And I don't think that we can all do everything perfectly or close to perfectly all the time. It's just not possible. And if you are, then you're exhausted. [chuckles]
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:49:14] Well, I think you bring up so many good points that as we're navigating these changing roles in our lives, as we're navigating figuring out who we are, like who are we in time and space now that we're not focused so much energy on raising children, our kids are pre-launching or one is launched and another one's at home, or for many of you probably have kids in middle school, high school, college, you've got a wide range of where children are, determining the direction that our lives take moving forward is a process, I always say it's a marathon. Anyone that's listening that thinks it is--
Sarah Milken: [00:49:53] Slow and steady, baby.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:49:54] Exactly. My favorite physician I used to work with, Dr. Jeff Louie my favorite, favorite person I used to work with used to say that all the time, slow and steady wins because we as humans are so impatient. We want everything right now. And I've come to find, you know I'm a big fan of Human Design theory. I'm not sure what your thoughts are on it, but I'm a manifesting generator.
Sarah Milken: [00:50:17] So I’m I.
[00:50:19] Yeah, so for me, when something feels intuitive, that's what I lean into. And I find that that works really well for me. It would be different for someone else. But I've come to find that as I'm navigating each new year of life, these new roles, new relationships, I get clearer about what I do and don't want. The boundaries piece is so strong and affirming for me and leaning into the fact that I actually am a big introvert and I know people are surprised when they see me speaking on stages or at events or having a podcast. And I tell them, I'm like, “I go to events. I'm generally the person who goes back to my hotel room and decompresses.” I'm not the one who's out going out to big events, big dinners in the evening. I have an event I'm speaking at next week. And I will, of course be going to those dinners because that's part of what their expectations are. But I think for everyone listening, understanding it is a marathon. And that, I look at this philosophy of good, better, best meaning to your point where you say, some days you don't get all the steps and you don't get all the supplements and maybe you didn't go to the gym. I know you affectionately referred to the weight training as the dumb weights, which always makes me chuckle.
Sarah Milken: [00:51:29] Aha, aha I'm like, “Is this really happening to me? Where are my endorphins? I can't find them.”
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:35] I know. I told my trainer last night. She trying to get me to be able to do pull ups again, which I haven't been able to do since I was hospitalized. I lost so much muscle mass. And at the very end of our training session, I was finally like, I always do it all. Whatever she tells me to do, I do with a smile on my face. And I'm usually laughing about it. And last night I think I had four more reps and I was like, “I can't do it.” I was on the floor. I was like, “I'm done. I'm totally done.” My shoulders are on fire.
Sarah Milken: [00:51:58] Good for you though. You have to, you have to speak up for yourself, you know where you're at. There's a difference between kind of wimping out on something and you've just had enough and you know.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:52:09] Yeah. And so I think that it goes back to the reaffirming about boundaries and defining for ourselves what we want our lives to look like. And it doesn't have to be decided in one day. It may take 10 more years, it may take 5 more years, and that is totally okay. When I think about my mother's generation, my grandmother's generation, it was very different. I think women were expected to accept whatever circumstances they were given. There wasn't, you know you get to choose a partner that makes you happy. I remember my grandmother saying to me, “Honest to God, Cynthia, you marry who you marry.” Because I remember asking her after my grandfather passed, “Do you think you'll get married again?” And she's like, “Nope, no reason to.” I raised one husband, and now the next, [Sarah laughs] however many years, because she had very close relationship with her younger sister. And she said, “Now it's time for Ruth and I just to have fun.” And what a novel concept.
[00:53:03] What are some of the blind spots you think women have at this stage of life? And by blind spots, I mean kind of finding that reframe. I think for a lot of people, if I look at social media as a mini world view, there's a wide range of perspectives. There are a lot of people who find the humor in life, the reframe. I think they probably have a happier worldview than people that are incredibly pessimistic. But if we're putting on your psychologist lens, looking at this stage of life, what are some of the things that, for you, if you're seeing, whether it's someone you talk to on a podcast, someone you see on social media, or close friend or friends in your friend group that are signs that someone's struggling, that they may not be able to see as clearly as you do.
Sarah Milken: [00:53:51] I mean, like you I'm an introverted extrovert, an extroverted introvert, an ambivert. There's a million definitions to it where I can go really hard for two days, talk to a million people, and then don't talk to me for four days. And like, “Please,” I am like, I don't want to respond to texts. I don't want to phone calls. But what's interesting is I've realized that a lot of my friends are in the same boat too. In the sense that, like some of my best friends, I'm like, “I haven't heard from you.” And one of them will say, “I've just been kind of just in my own space just trying to figure it all out. I'm adjusting my hormones and I don't really know what's me, if it's like the different hormones that I'm trying?” And I think part of it is about giving yourself space, but also understanding that a lot of other women in the same age range are going through their own things too.
[00:54:51] A lot of times, if you don't get the text back or the call back, it's not personal. It's just they're in the shitstorm too, and they're figuring it out and that friendships ebb and flow, and it's not that someone doesn't like you anymore or they don't want to hang out with you. It's like, “Hey, they have this kind of clunky, stuck hamster wheel going too.” And sometimes they don't want to reach out. And then there's sort of the antidote to that where, some of my friends and I were like, “We're kind of bored.” Like, we all have things going on and a podcast and this. And this person has that. But let's do a midlife field trip. And so a couple friends and I will pick something totally random. We'll, like, go to a part of the city that is a half an hour away, we've never been to that area before, we keep hearing about it, and we're like, “We're going to go on a midlife field trip.” And we just change the scenery. And I think it's sounds really basic, but it's like going to the Billy Joel concert or going to the Back to the Future concert or whatever.
[00:55:53] It's like creating moments of joy hunting, even if it's just for a day. It's like, “What's the joy?” That anticipation for the week? Like, on Friday, Ally, Melissa and I are going to go to this part of the city that we've never been to, we've never seen the stores there, never seen the restaurants there and that's going to be our midlife field trip. And it sounds so kind of like old age home, but so is all of life if you think about it. So finding the kind of joy, glimmers, anticipatory events to break up the monotony as basic as it sounds, I feel like is really helpful and, like I said, kind of giving people the time and space. Some friends, I'm like, “Wait, there is really something wrong.” So then I'll text and I'll say, “You've been quiet for a month now. I really want to check in on you. You promised me that you were going to go get your hormones checked, you promised me, “Did you?””
[00:56:57] And then finally, my friend, we went on a walk two days ago, and she goes, “I went, I got my blood work done. I'm getting my answers back next week, and I'm going to report back to you.” And sometimes you just need an accountability partner in midlife. Because it's a lot, it’s a lot of things all at the same time. It's like we talked about the spousal thing, the half empty nest or full empty nest thing, the hormone thing, and everything is an experiment. I think embracing the experimental part, it's sort of like giving up control with your kids. Embracing the experimental kind of mindset is not easy for control freaks. [chuckles] And knowing that you're becoming your own hormonal midlife science project is scary. But then at the same time, it's interesting too, because if you can think about it as, like, “Okay, I used to feel like this. Now I feel like this.” But knowing that there's people out in the world, if I find the right experts and I advocate for myself hard enough I can feel like this, and you hear testimonials about people who, like, couldn't have sex anymore because it was too painful, but now they can.
[00:58:11] And there's all these things that we can do without getting bogged down, because I think with social media, you're right. You see a glimpse of people's lives and you're like, “Oh, my God, her life is perfect.” But I think that if we remind ourselves that no one's life is perfect and everyone has imposter syndrome, I see you and I'm like, “Oh, my God, Cynthia hit 9 million downloads. I'm never going to do that.” And then you see someone else, and you're like, “She hit 52 million downloads. I'm never going to do that.” There's always going to be someone who has more, who's done it differently, who seems to have it better. But everyone has a backstory. Everyone has a side piece. And I think just knowing that you're you and everyone else is them. And that there are backstories to all of these things. Not that you want negative things for people, but just knowing that not everyone shows everything.
[00:59:13] And for me, like, “Do I show every nook and cranny of my relationship with my husband?” Of course not. But there's days where he bugs the hell out of me or something weird happens or my kids aren't perfect. I sometimes bring that up on Instagram because it's not like, “Oh, feel sorry for me.” But it's like, “Yeah, I exploded my coffee for the third time in the microwave this week.” And yeah, I know my coffee is not supposed to be in the microwave because the microwave is bad for you, but guess what? I'm not perfect and shit happens. And I think embracing that kind of journey, mentality, the experimental mindset, is something that we sort of have to do at this point in life because there's so much change happening and so much of the change is out of our control and so much of it is in our control, and kind of leaning into that.
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:00:08] I love that, Sarah. And I think this is one of many reasons why I really appreciate your transparency, your honesty, because for there are so many people on social media, they only show you the good. Now, as I'm saying this, I'm like, I haven't really been doing a lot of video on social media. It usually depends on, if I'm really-- right now I'm writing my second book and I'm preparing. I'm like, way behind on slides for this event that I'm speaking at next week and I already got an extension. And I think it's still going to be tough getting them to them by Friday. But it's amazing to see how some of us contract when we're feeling overwhelmed. Like, I contract-
Sarah Milken: [01:00:45] So do I, so do I
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:00:46] -and my team is posting and that's how I show up. And then I'll pop back up and I'll say to people, “Well, I've been busy and that's the truth.” But I also feel like for me, when I'm on social media, for me to feel connected and feel like I'm really being real is to just be honest. I've had a tough last couple months or whatever is going on. I think it's more affirming when we're real and transparent and honest. I'd love to end the conversation talking about hormone replacement therapy because I know you've been very honest about your journey and obviously this is a hot topic for nearly every guest. It sounds like for you and your girlfriends in your community, making people aware that this is an option and for a lot of people-- I cannot tell you how many patients and clients once they got on hormone replacement therapy, their whole view of the world shifted.
[01:01:40] They went from being like anxious and depressed and just not feeling like themselves to suddenly feeling calm, they're sleeping, they feel better, they feel like they can connect with their partner. Where has your HRT journey taken you thus far? I know you're still in perimenopause, you haven't crossed over that threshold yet, but what have you experimented with? What do you feel like for you personally has been very effective or helpful?
Sarah Milken: [01:02:06] I'm very honest about this and I'm in a unique situation, I've probably mentioned this to you in the past. I started on birth control pills when I was 14 because I had-- at the time, I don't think they called it PCOS or if they did, I didn't know. It was like, you have bad cramps, you have this, you have that, here's a birth control pill. And for better or for worse, I know what the research says, “It's not always great, blah, blah, blah.” All the things, I get it. But for me, I'm 49, turning 50 this year, and I'm still on birth control pills. It's something that I am planning on transitioning off of. I've been planning it for the past year. I've talked to various people. No one can give me an 100% straight shooter answer of what will happen when I switch from birth control pills that have a different kind of estrogen than HRT but I'm trying to do all the other pieces.
[01:03:00] This is another thing I want to say to women too, is be realistic about yourself. Be realistic about your timeline, what's going on in your life and what you can tolerate. So I said to my doctor, “Look, I know I need to switch over to HRT, but for me, my daughter's in college application time right now, so I can't switch everything all at the same time.” And I think that if you're honest and you really understand where you're at in your life, it's helpful because then she said to me, “Okay, I understand we're not going to make that huge switch. We're just going to kind of do this midlife science experiment in pieces.” So she's like, “Your testosterone is very low.” Obviously, it's also very low [chuckles] because I take birth control pills, which is a huge piece of that.
[01:03:53] So I started testosterone cream. I've kind of rotated around, wear on my body and all of those things. And at first, I was like, “Oh, my God, am I going to get pimples? Am I going to lose my hair?” And I think a lot of times those worries stop you from doing something or the black label all of these things. And I think when I started opening up on Instagram, like, “Hey, you guys, this is the midlife menopause science experiment.” I can afford a little bit of experimentation right now, but not all of it, but some of it. So I started the testosterone. Then she was like, “Okay, progesterone, you're not sleeping great at night. You need to add in the progesterone.” She gave me 100 mg. I felt like I got hit by a baseball bat the next day. So then I went back to her, and I was like, “That's not working for me.” So then she got me compounded progesterone, which came in 25 mg capsules instead of 100.
[01:04:48] So, again, it's just the example of knowing the information, advocating for yourself, and keep going back until you get it right. And, yes, doctors get annoyed. I get that, doctors have limited time, but you're your only advocate. And knowing that there are answers and there are different variations of things. So for me, it's been the lower progesterone, the lower dose testosterone. Now I am going to retest all my numbers. Oh, and I started a compounded DHEA pregnenolone capsule. Do I know if anything works? I have no idea. Because half the time, as we know, it's like a placebo or this or that, but it doesn't matter. What matters is you're trying things. Your brain knows you're trying something, so you feel like you've already had a little bit of a small win because you're like, “I checked the box. I called the doctor, I made the appointment, I got the medication, I tried it.” And then, as we go along and my daughter gets through this college process situation, then I'm going to add in, “Okay, now I'm going to switch over to the patch.”
[01:05:59] And I think a lot of my friends who have fought the patch for so long and who are now embracing it are like, “Oh, my God, I should have done that so long ago.” I really, really think that framework from the Women's Health Initiative from so long ago, still plagues so many people about cancer and this and all the negative side effects. But I think by now, if your Instagram feed looks like mine [chuckles] or maybe yours, and you're in that, like, midlife space, there's enough information out there to know that if you are a candidate for it, how helpful it can be. And other things that I've done in terms of health, I feel like I've had so many of my health markers checked. The only thing I hadn't had checked was my gut. And what's strange to me is most doctors are not asking their patients to get to do stool samples, you know mapping and microbiome. I haven't talked about this on Instagram yet because I'm still processing it, but wow, that is like a whole other ball of wax. When those results came back, I was blown away.
[01:07:12] I don't have symptoms, but based on my numbers, she's like, “You're very gluten sensitive. You should not be eating gluten.” All of these things that I didn't think about. And my husband's like, “You're just digging for problems, you're searching for things.” And I'm like, “You know what? You do you, I'm going to do me.” So, of course, his came back with a lot of similar things, by the way.
[laughter]
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:07:36] It's interesting and I'll just interject this that, my husband like your husband thinks that we're just searching for problems. And I just tell them, “Listen, literally, I'm not exaggerating. The FedEx guy is going to pick up my stool sample.” Because I just did a big GI Effects and we usually do it.
Sarah Milken: [01:07:54] I just did that one too.
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:07:55] Yeah, it's a great test. It's a very comprehensive test, once you get beyond the ick factor. We actually did one for my 17-year-old and he was so--
Sarah Milken: [01:08:04] I made my kids do it too. They were like, “You're joking, right?” I’m like, “No.”
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:08:08] He was completely disgusted. He was like, “I can't do this.” And I was like, “Yes, you can.”
Sarah Milken: [01:08:13] Yes, you can.
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:08:14] Yes, you can. Follow the directions. Package it all up, all [01:08:17 [unintelligible]
Sarah Milken: [01:08:18] Here’s some gloves. See you later. [Cynthia laughs] You got this?
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:08:22] Yes. It can be very insightful. So that was what I just wanted to interject. But I do occasionally get pushback from my husband because he actually is overdue due to a stool test. And he's kind of been like, “Do I really need to do it?” Yes, yes, you really need to do it.
Sarah Milken: [01:08:35] But My point is, and this is what I say to him too. I'm like, “Look, I'm not looking for problems.” I just want to know that was like the last piece of my puzzle. I know I need to switch over to the patch from birth control pills, but the gut piece, I didn't know. And there's so much information in there, dysbiosis, leaky guide, gluten intolerance, all these things and then you feel overwhelmed by that. But I think it's sort of like why I call my podcast The Flexible Neurotic. Once you neurotically gather as much information as you can about yourself, then like I said earlier, you can pick and choose the things that you can, “fix.” You can’t fix everything all at once. It's not like I'm never going to eat gluten again or a piece of sugar for the rest of my life and I'm only going to eat grassfed beef for breakfast, lunch and dinner. No, of course not.
[01:09:29] But maybe like right now I'm in this month where I'm like, “You know what, I'm going to cut back on my sugar, I'm going to cut back on my carbs and I'm going to readdress this in a month and reassess it and see where I'm at and like really see what I'm putting in my body at this age is doing to me because they're real things.” And what we're doing now, and it's not to be scary, it's just to be real. Like what we're doing now with our bodies, with weights and water and protein, it's kind of predicting what the next stage of life is going to be. And to be honest, when you look at your parents and you see that the information that they didn't have at the time and you look at the information that we're privileged enough to have at this time, how can you not? So that's where I'm at right now.
[01:10:21] It's like, “How can you not find you're good enough with all of the amazing information that's out there.” But that's not to become like an orthorexic, crazy neurotic person. It's just get all the information that you can, get your markers done, get your cholesterol, all those things, and then pick and choose the small micro steps that you're going to use to get there. No one's ever going to be perfect, but you can optimize where you're at. I look at you and you're like eating bison all the time, and you're eating all this protein. I'm like, “God, I got to clean up my protein act a little bit.” It's not easy.
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:10:58] Remembering it's a journey that for all of us. Oftentimes, you'll see that iceberg analogy. And the iceberg, you just see what's above the surface, not what's underneath the surface. This isn't my first rodeo. So 13 years ago, when I gave up gluten, my diet looked very different than it does now. And so it really is this marathon. It's like over time you’re figuring out what works. It's like the experiment of the N of 1. What works for you, what is sustainable that is far more important than doing the latest fad and then realizing, like two weeks later you're like, “This is not sustainable.” So ultimately, my hope is that people will try new things, number one, figure out what works well for them, the power of the N of 1 and certainly embrace things that make you feel good. If it makes you feel good to do walk in sunshine every day with your dogs, then do it. If it makes you feel bad to eat 60 g of protein in a meal, then don't do that. It's that simple of just trying-- It's like pulling a lever and seeing what feels good and what's sustainable because ultimately that's the goal, sustainability.
Sarah Milken: [01:12:08] Yeah. And knowing that when you try new things, they're hard, and hard doesn't mean bad. It just means they're hard. Like, for me to not eat gummy bears on the plane yesterday, and I'm not even a person who eats the whole bag, even if it's 10, that was like a mental battle for me. I am not accustomed to that, that was hard for me. Eating like a green apple sucks [Cynthia laughs] compared to eating the gummy bears, let's be honest. But at the same time, I'm like, “Okay.” Some of my inflammation numbers were high. They think it's driven by sugar. My body doesn't process sugar. Maybe it processed sugar in the past, and now it's not doing that anymore. So let me figure out a way of optimizing this in the best way that I can.
[01:12:59] But then I found a chocolate that's like made with dates or whatever. So I was like, “I'm going to have one square of that.” I'm not going to go crazy in the deep end, off the deep end. I'm like, “Never going to eat anything for the rest of my life.” I can't do that. That's not sustainable. So I'm in the midlife experimental process of figuring out, what works for me. And what works for me may not be the same thing that works for someone else. So when everyone wants to know, all the supplements I'm taking or whatever, and I'm sure you too. It's like, “It may not work for you, it works for me.” I love creatine, so do you. Some of my friends say that it bloats them or [unintelligible 01:13:39] stomach ache or whatever it is. So that doesn't work for you, try something else, and it's just kind of finding your lane, you're good enough and not judging other people's-- It's like the midlife journey, staying in your own lane, putting your own oxygen mask on first and hoping that your kid from college texts you.
[laughter]
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:14:03] So much wisdom. Sarah, please let listeners know how to connect with you on social media, how to find your hilarious podcast.
Sarah Milken: [01:14:12] It's all things, The Flexible Neurotic, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. I'm not really good with TikTok. I think most of my stuff is on Instagram. Just spell neurotic right?
[laughter]
[01:14:25] And then you'll find me. N-E-U-R-O-T-I-C. And I'm a very responsive person, obviously, we all get lots of DMs. And I really do try to make it part of my routine to respond to everyone who reaches out to me because I think part of the midlife journey is having people that relate to you. And I know that not everyone has one friend or a million friends. And I get tons of messages from women every day. Like, “I don't really have a lot of friends, or now that my kids are out of school, I don't have a lot of friends or I just moved to a new city. And thank you so much for being the person who can respond to my DMs once in a while and make me feel like I'm not alone.” And I think that's been my why for this whole time. So that's me.
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:15:20] Love it. Thank you again, my friend.
Sarah Milken: [01:15:22] Thank you so much. I love being with you.
Cynthia Thurlow: [01:15:26] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating in review, subscribe and tell a friend.
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