I am delighted to reconnect with Teri Cochrane today! Teri is the founder of the Global Sustainable Health Institute® and an international thought leader in longevity. Through her decades of clinical work, Teri has developed The Cochrane Method®, a future-facing, multisystem health and longevity model that examines the intersection of gene expression due to pathogenic and environmental causes, energy, and her clients’ unique personal blueprint. Teri specializes in solutions to complex health conditions and serves world-class athletes. She is the author of the Amazon best-selling new release book, The Wildatarian Diet: Living As Nature Intended.
Teri’s perspective on health and longevity is fresh and unique, and she has her own quirky way of describing certain potentially intangible concepts. She understands that we are all different, so every individual requires a particular and very granular approach to their diet and lifestyle to achieve optimal health.
In this episode, we take a deep dive into the role of bio-individuality and focus on women’s hormones and the endocrine system. We talk about applied kinesiology. We discuss the role of oxalates and the impact of genetics, SMPs, mycotoxins (mold), candida, and strep on our health. We get into methylation, gut health, estrogen detoxification, liver detox, and ways to support our bodies. We talk about why women tend to feel fluffy, the impact of cortisol, how sleep and stress affect our health, the importance of micronutrients- especially for thyroid function, and the role of neurotransmitters. We also discuss the quality of animal-based protein and explain why chicken is a dirty bird.
I hope you love listening to this valuable conversation and learn a lot from it!
IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:
- Teri unpacks what bio-individuality represents.
- What makes women unique in terms of their hormonal makeup?
- Teri talks about some of the major contributors to dysbiosis.
- The impact of genetics, SMPs, mycotoxins, candida, and strep on our health.
- Why is candida such a beast?
- How do hormone supplements exacerbate metabolic dysbiosis?
- How progesterone gets “stolen” to produce the stress hormone cortisol.
- The feedback we get from applied kinesiology.
- The genetic tests Teri uses to learn how people might react to various supplements.
- What are oxalates, and how do they impact people’s health?
- Teri discusses the two phases of liver detoxification.
- Teri’s preferred methodology for dealing with extra estrogen.
- Supporting the immune system function.
- What is the issue with protein from domesticated animal meats, like chicken, beef, pork, and turkey?
- It is vital to know your body and genes and understand how food can be either a healer or a poison.
Connect with Cynthia Thurlow
Connect with Teri Cochrane
- On her website
- On Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube
- Find Teri’s book, The Wildatarian Diet: Living As Nature Intended, on Amazon
“Women are beautifully complex and elegant at the same time.”
– Teri Cochrane
Cynthia: Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I’m your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower, and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent are to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.
Today, I had the amazing opportunity to reconnect with my dear friend, Teri Cochrane, who’s also the founder of the Global Sustainable Health Initiative and International Thought Leader in longevity. She and I dove deep into the role of bio-individuality, got really granular, and talked a bit about applied kinesiology. A large amount of our focus today was on women’s hormones, and the endocrine system, as well as the net impact of genetics, SNPs, especially COMT and MTHFR, the role of oxalates, mycotoxins aka mold, Candida and Strep on our health, the impact of methylation, gut health, estrogen detoxification, Phase 1 and Phase 2 liver detox and ways to support our bodies. One of my favorite Terisms, we talked about being fluffy and the impact of cortisol’s dirty cupcake, as well as the role of sleep and stress on our health, the importance of micronutrients especially for thyroid function, the role of neurotransmitters, and lastly the quality of animal-based protein and why chicken is the dirty bird. I hope you will love this conversation and find it as invaluable as I always do.
I’m excited to be recording with you. I was talking to one of my monthly groups and saying, “How you have this very unique and fresh perspective on health and longevity?” I happen to just read through your bullet points that you put in here. They’re like, “Ooh, that sounds really interesting.”
Teri: [laughs] We’re really going to go down into the hormone rabbit hole, because so many people don’t understand about the synthesis of hormones and how it affects in the liver, in the thyroid, in the heart, and then in the gut, too. It’s all about fat. Fat, and cortisol, and estrogen, and insulin, and thyroid hormone, so, it’s a big deal and that effectively acts on immunity over time.
Cynthia: Absolutely. Well, what I usually have been doing is an intro after we record so that I can tie all the pieces together. Well, Teri, I’m thrilled and excited to have you back today to talk about bio-individuality, and hormones, and all the things that all my listeners love to hear about.
Teri: I’m so happy to be back with your audience, Cynthia. I love dancing with you in this space.
Cynthia: Absolutely. When we use the term bio-individuality, and for listeners that are hearing me sound like a frog, I am recovering from an upper respiratory infection. Happy to say, I am completely free of COVID, but I just want to preemptively say, “I sound like I’ve been a 50-pack-year smoker.” But I am improving. I just am now left with laryngitis. Let’s unpack what bio-individuality represents, because people are familiarized hearing me use that term quite a bit. But I know in your work with patients as well, this is a huge point of contention because mainstream medicine narrative is that, there’s one size fits all philosophy, and you and I both recognize and honor the power of being around individuals.
Teri: Absolutely. If we look to the spectrum of this one size fits all, which has been said a lot, people now understand that one size doesn’t fit all, but we don’t understand how granular it is necessary that we get to really hit the optimal state of health for that individual. That’s why with my approach and you know this very well is, we match the genetics and those potentialities with the current state of health. Women are so dynamic, not only from month to month, but from year to year and then also just in terms of managing and juggling so much in our lives. Looking through that bio-individualized lens that’s overlaid with our genetic potentiality for how we process hormones, how we process catecholamines and neurotransmitters, how we manage our insulin is super important for women, and how we manage our protein, and sulfur, and oxalate metabolism, because that then plays in hormonal disruption in particular is really central to orchestrating a very nuanced and elegant plan, but it’s simple in its application.
As you know, your family knows our practice very well is that, once you get into the rhythm of understanding it, when you get out of bounds, you’re like, “Okay, I did this” and it may have affected my metabolic pathway that way. Again, once we understand it, then we’re educated and we’re not afraid of, “Uh-oh, I have no idea why this is happening” and we fall further down the rabbit hole, because now we’re in a state of fear and uncertainty.
Cynthia: Absolutely. I think there’s so much more to hormones than trying to control them. I think that’s the traditional medical narrative of which– That’s where my training began. When we thought about hormones, they were in buckets that there was no intercommunication between hormones, and neurotransmitters, and organs. It was just you’re in a bucket. We’re going to talk about progesterone in one bucket, and estradiol in another, and testosterone in another, insulin and cortisol, and yet, we now really understand that it’s all the complex interrelationship between all of these hormones and neurotransmitters and as you mentioned whether or not we can metabolize and break down certain types of food compounds. So, let’s really start with what makes women unique in terms of their hormonal makeup and the recognition that women that are still very fertile and still cycling every month are a little bit different than women who are no longer cycling, no longer in their reproductive years?
Teri: Absolutely. Women are beautifully complex [laughs] and elegant at the same time. What makes us unique is that, we have to look at our body’s ability. We look at methylation, which that is also a big buzzword in the world of functional medicine and how we methylate determines our genetic expression. That’s why DNA methylation is super critical. But how we methylate also determines our body’s ability to manage and metabolize hormones such as estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, insulin, catecholamines of serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine, and also, how to synthesize protein, which is necessary also for amino acid utilization, which gets to then a downstream impact on how we manage glucose regulation. We really have to look at, “Am I methylating, am I breaking down that estrogen?” We have to look at the gut. If we’re in a dysbiotic gut, there’s an enzyme that’s produced called beta-glucuronidase. It took me about three months to say that correctly.
When that enzyme is elevated and we’re actually creating what I call an estrogen spin cycle, so the liver sends the excess estrogen to be excreted by the gut. The gut says, “No, I can’t do it.” It sends it to the lymph, and the lymph sends it back to the liver, we get fluffy, we get estrogen dominant, we get the cystic acne, we can even become polycystic, our thyroid starts going sideways, we get depressed because estrogen and serotonin compete on the cells, the same receptor sites. So, just that one little dysbiotic gut can set off this cascade of what I’ve just said. Then, the doctors are dumbfounded, because what they’re saying, “Well, your absolute estrogen numbers are normal. So, let’s give you more estrogen.” Well, that’s absolutely the last thing you want to do, because you’re already under an estrogen burden. They give you more estrogen, because your periods are dysregulated, and you’re starting to get a little fluffy, and you’re also starting to get depressed. Estrogen is the go-to even if it’s compounded and even if it’s the better form of estrogen. As you know, I rarely tell women that hormone therapy is the answer to hormone dysregulation.
Cynthia: I think it also speaks to the fact that we’re dealing with a symptom– in traditional allopathic medicine, we’re dealing with a symptom as opposed to looking upstream or downstream in I think a lot of your work. Certainly, I feel I know it now over the last several years is really a reflection of looking outside the box of really thinking very critically at all of the interrelationships that you alluded to. Now, dysbiosis, I affectionately refer to as weeds in the garden.
Teri: I love it.
Cynthia: When I try to explain it to patients that there are good healthy bacteria that belong in the gut microbiome, and then we have weeds in the garden to really identify that they’re not benefiting us. In fact, in some instances, they can be quite harmful. What do you feel like are some of the major contributors to the development of dysbiosis in your patient population?
Teri: We call them getting bullies in the sandbox. We have this UN, everybody lives together happily, we all get a seat at the table, because there are many more organisms than there are cells in our body. It’s only 43% us. The rest is not us. It’s bacteria, it’s viruses, it’s parasitic organisms, they’re fungal organisms. But as long as everybody’s happy, then, they leave us alone. Stress is a huge inducer of becoming bullies in the sandbox, because we know stress. I call it a fire starter. It helps to feed these guys. Now, they were all being happily playing and now, they’re being fed, and now some of them looks like to feed on sugar. See, they don’t like it at all, my earbuds are still up. Once they’re fed, then they become overgrown. They become weeds. Our polished and manicured garden is now weedy. When that happens, Candida is really a big bug. That’s I call it the beast of yeast. It is a fungal organism. Strep is also a big problem and we don’t even have to have active Strep. It could be triggered by Candida setting off an autoantibody of Strep. So, why is Candida such a beast?
Well, we know that 90% of serotonin and 50% of dopamine is made in our gut. When the beast of yeast is in play, that’s going to be dysregulated. When Candida becomes a weed as you say, it’s going to start an estrogen dominance cycle. When Candida becomes a weed, the enzymes there, like the beta-glucuronidase are going to become elevated further creating an estrogen burden. When the weeds are out of control, the minerals such as iodine, and selenium, and copper, and iron, and zinc, which are so necessary for the making of thyroid hormones, because some thyroid hormones are actually made in the gut, they’re being pushed out. Now, we’re demineralized, we have a bully in the sandbox, our serotonin is being pushed down, our dopamine is being pushed down, we’re now depressed, we’re not making our thyroid hormones, so now, we’re metabolically out of alignment. We’re recycling estrogen. Now, our liver is backed up, so now, we’re fat malabsorbed. Now, once our liver is backed up, now insulin is becoming a problem. You look at this beautiful, elegant domino effect just by a stress event alone that just set off this firestorm of complete dysregulation of hormones, mineralization, metabolic function, organ dysfunction. It’s quite remarkable how one little thing can have such a huge impact.
Cynthia: Well, I think there’s not enough focus I know in my traditional allopathic training, we talk about stress like it’s a bucket. Again, back to the bucket methodology of, here’s stress and this is how you deal with stress. But really what we’re focusing on are the symptoms that the acknowledgement that this is all interrelated. I would also add, when I’m working with women and the GI map is the test that I use, where I can see all that dysbiosis. Interestingly enough, women north of 35 almost consistently having tremendous amount of dysbiosis. Depending how metabolically healthy they are and the acknowledgement that the bulk of the population is now largely metabolically unhealthy and I see more and more and more of the dysbiosis. I always say, it’s almost as if it’s the canary in the coal mine. It’s just letting us know there’s a whole lot more that’s going on underneath all that.
The woman that comes to you that is fat malabsorbed needs liver detoxification support, is depressed, is filling fluffy, which fluffy, by the way, is the most beautiful way of describing how many women feel when their hormones aren’t properly balanced. It’s like you just don’t feel right and it’s a non-technical terminology, but any woman who’s ever felt this way knows you don’t feel 100%. You’re not feeling confident. God forbid someone asks you to get into a bathing suit or do anything like that, you’re not going to feel you’re in the best position. So, when you’re counseling women, talking to women about this, do you find that women that are already on for example, synthetic hormones, bioidentical hormones that this just exacerbates this entire situation, I would imagine?
Teri: Absolutely and that’s really interesting that you say that most women that you see over 35 are metabolically dysbiotic. And whoops, I’m just having a hard time with these little earbuds today. I think, Cynthia, the reason why a great reason is because many of us have been on hormones. Mostly estrogen, which is going to by its own nature disrupt the gut microbiome. So, that’s really fascinating. Now, we’re told we’re going into menopause. Yes, estrogen is going to drop as an absolute number, so is progesterone. And typically, the first thing to be given is estrogen, because they say, “Well, you’re dropping estrogen.” But let’s look at the difference and the balance between estrogen and progesterone and are you still estrogen dominant, because your progesterone has fallen much faster than the estrogen. I do counsel many women. We work a lot with infertility, we work a lot with menopause, and depression, and anxiety that comes with it. We work a lot with thyroid dysfunction, we work a lot with the tangential weight, fluffy as a result of a metabolic dysfunction that has resulted.
When women come into my practice, we really first look at what are your genetic tendencies? If you have that MTHFR, C677T gene polymorphism you and I share, all right? We’re women that recycle estrogen. I didn’t know it at the time, but when I was trying to conceive, I had multiple miscarriages. Why? Because I was estrogen dominant and I also had a very rigorous corporate career. I traveled all the time. One of the things that many women don’t know is, when we are pushing cortisol which is a stress hormone, we actually eat progesterone. I call it the progesterone steal. Progesterone is stolen to make cortisol because we are the ever ready bunnies that have to get on that plane, and then, keep it going, and then, come home, and do all the things that we women do. I had four miscarriages not understanding that I was so estrogen dominant. We didn’t have genetics at the time. Then, I had to be on bed rest for 10 weeks with each of my children, again, because my progesterone was so low. In retrospect, I understand that now and also, I was under great stress during the pregnancies.
We really have to look at genetically how are we, do I have that MTHFR gene, do I also have the COMT gene, which not only looks to regulating our serotonin and dopamine which estrogen dysregulates, but it also goes to high estrogen. Now, I’ve got two markers that are in the genetic model or real of me that makes me more likely to be estrogen dominant. We look at MTHFR, we look at COMT, then we also look at genes that create oxalates. Oxalates tend to– like spinach and almond, you and I know that and for a while that you weren’t eating those, and you share publicly about your situation when your gut was off, which then caused other things. Those tend to build mold. Mold is a fungus, and fungus and estrogen feeds on mold. Then, here we are again feeding that estrogen imbalance. Looking at the genes of mold, the genes of methylation, the genes of insulin, there’s INSR gene, there’s a Gad gene. How is that playing, because insulin is called the fat storage hormone. If we’re trying to be keto in an environment, where we have all of these genetic tendencies that make us unable or less robust in fat metabolism. What are hormones? They’re fat soluble. Our liver is going to be backed up and that’s when we truly get fluffy, because we can’t break down the foods that are higher in fat and we’re really poking the bear from a detoxification perspective and really backing up that liver making hormones much more unable to be processed. So, more is not better.
Many doctors, they say, “Just take more estrogen, let’s add a little testosterone, let’s add a little progesterone,” and your liver’s going, “Stop. I can’t break it down, and I’m getting fluffy, and that’s going into my lymph.” And because the brain is made up of over 60% of fat, now we can’t think anymore because we’re foggy headed. We have to look at all of that and we look at it in terms of where you are at looking at your genetics, looking at your estrogen. We do apply kinesiology and you’ve witnessed it personally how in real time it gives us such beautiful feedback on, can you eat that almond butter, can you have that avocado, even though it holds estrogen because you’re so fat malabsorbed right now? So, we look at the foods also that compare and contain certain constituents that can either help you or hurt you.
Cynthia: So much good information. Do you have specific genetic testing that you like to work with? If you are concerned that someone has the MTHFR SNP or COMT, do you refer, is their particular test that you that you have a preference for?
Teri: Well, interestingly enough, because when we look at hormones, hormones are clearly linked to mood, and depression, and anxiety. For your the medical practitioners out there in the listening audience, there are two tests called GeneSight and Genomind. Those are both used for actually trying to see what Pharmatrophix or SSRIs and SNRIs, and anti-anxiety and so forth meet your genetic blueprinting. I use it to also say do you have because it looks at MTHFR, it looks at COMT, it looks at Phase 1 liver detoxification how well you can process compounds, and chemicals, and pharmaceuticals. So, that’s a great one it is by order. But what I use in our naturopath here who analyzes the polymorphisms, we either use 23andMe and/or our ancestry.com and then, I run it through the Cochrane method, which really layers another element of this symphony and dance that we look at. But we find those to be extremely helpful. In office, if you don’t have those tests, we test these genetic SNPs as well, if you will through muscle testing to see if there’s an imbalance. We do test that in house. It will be a direct output, because dirty genes can happen according to Ben Lynch. Even if you don’t have that, variants in the gene, you could be expressing it as you may. But the Ancestry, the 23andMe, and those other two that I mentioned are very good and giving us a really good foundation for saying, “How might I react in the presence of X, Y, Z?”
Cynthia: Well, I think that’s really valuable, because I’m sure there are people listening whether clinicians or the lay public that are wondering, how can I find this information out. For full disclosure, probably 10 plus years ago my older cousin, who’s a dear sister to me, who’s an OB-GYN, she dove down on a genetic rabbit hole and came to me and said, “Listen, if I’ve got two copies. You probably have at least one.” It turns out, I am homozygous for MTHFR C6770T. Here’s the important thing for everyone to understand. Just because you have it, it doesn’t mean that you have to take methylated vitamins immediately to dive down that rabbit hole. Because what ended up happening to another cousin, who is related to my older cousin, she ended up getting very sick, because all of a sudden started taking this MTHFR protocol. Much to your point, bio-individuality rules, you can have these genetic susceptibilities, but you may not be expressing them. I think actually taking all of those supplements actually turned things on for her that actually made her admitted to the hospital.
Cynthia: [crosstalk] so sick.
Cynthia: Recognizing, you really want to work with someone that understands the nuances, because it really is very nuanced and I love that you have so many options in terms of looking at genetic markers and looking at the susceptibility of the individual, because I think that’s so, so important. One of the things that I think is really important, yeah, there may be terms that you’re hearing you’ve never heard of before. Oxalates are something I really probably didn’t think much about until after my hospitalization and no matter what I ate. I could only eat meat. I could eat meat and I did fine. Anything that had fiber and certainly not an oxalate would actually drive more inflammation in the gut. So, let’s talk a little bit about what oxalates are for the benefits of people that may not be familiarized with this, but I will effectually start the conversation with killer kale?
Teri: [laughs] Killer kale. Yes, killer kale is both an oxalate and a sulfur compound. Why have oxalates, why have they been so shrouded in as being healthy, and why have these compounds that contain oxalates? Why are they become now such villains such as killer kale? Well, I believe in the work of Dr. Stephanie Seneff, who’s a wonderful top researcher at MIT and I believe biochemist has elucidated the fact that glyphosate, which is the active form found in Roundup. It’s a pesticide is actually having a massive deleterious effect on our macro biome. That’s our food, our soil, and so forth. What is happening to our microbiome and then the metabolic pathways is that, glyphosate has interrupted the body’s ability back to the dysbiotic gut, back to the weeds versus the flowers is that, it’s interrupted the body’s ability to create the probiotics, those good guys that used to be able to dismantle the oxalate. What are oxalates? Oxalates are found in plants, and beans, and nuts, and seeds, and certain fruits that they act as a protective mechanism to the plant. But the plant itself may have other wonderful properties like spinach has iron, and strawberries have vitamin C, and killer kale has phytonutrients.
However, when our gut can no longer manage the dismantling of that protective covering, then these oxalates can actually contribute to the feeding of Candida, because now, they’re helping to feed mold. They also help to create crystals, which actually cut the gut, because they’re little crystals, they are also can be found to aggregate in the kidney and in the gallbladder, because 85% of gallstones and kidney stones are calcium oxalates. Most importantly, which is very little spoken about is oxalates have been linked to myocardial infarction, heart attack, folks, because it creates this atherosclerosis creating plaque. I’m here to tell you, it’s not necessarily the cholesterol that may be the problem. Cholesterol actually has very positive properties. We have to look at the lipoproteins structure of cholesterol to see if it’s sticky or if it’s not. But absolute cholesterol numbers are a way old school way of finding out, do you have heart risk? Look at the oxalate burden, look at your genetics, do you have arthritis, are you crystallizing? That may be more of an issue than what might seem to be a high cholesterol. Then, you get put on a statin and that statin will more than likely affect your kidney. That’s why people get cramps and it’s been shown to dysregulate insulin, which is again, much more of an inflammatory agent to the heart than absolute cholesterol.
It’s a big thing. We eat killer kale, and spinach, and almonds, and blueberries, and black beans, all berries, except for cherries and black beans, because we’ve been told, “Hey, these are amazing, they have phytonutrients, they’re going to help your gut, they’re going to be liver detoxifiers.” This is a true story. I had a kale smoothie once, didn’t understand it that before killer kale, I knew that killer kale was such a problem for me, I had to stop on the road and get off the road, because I could not think, Cynthia. Those oxalates impact that dopamine and serotonin, and I got very dizzy, I got completely disoriented. I’m like, I just had a happy smoothie. But through my ever-emerging research, I’m like, “Holy moly, this is what’s happening” and these oxalates can also turn on pathogenic loads, which can be really problematic as we just spoke to earlier.
Cynthia: It’s interesting because friends of mine that are aware of these plant-based compounds, we were talking about how we know we’ve had too much oxalates. For me, my tell, I don’t get brain fog or get dizzy. I will get loose stools. That’s my tell. That’s how I instantaneously know and for anyone that is not familiar, it’s now almost three years ago, I was hospitalized for 13 days, spent almost nine months being carnivore, because anytime I introduced fiber and certainly oxalates, it would really exacerbate my symptoms. But for me, my tell is two things. I get loose stools and I will get plantar fasciitis pain in one foot. One foot, not both feet, one foot. I find it fascinating that it increased that much inflammation in the body, that it’s my tell. But I think for you and I and probably some of the listeners too, they’re very attuned to how their bodies feel. They lean in when something doesn’t feel right and they try to say, “Okay, what could be exacerbating the symptom?”
Also, important to just mention there are other types of plant-based compounds, things like tannins, saponins, oxalates are probably a more popular thing. I think for a lot of people that are low carb, keto, gluten free, a lot of almond flour, a lot of almonds in your life, I encourage you to think outside the almond centric world. The one thing I came to find out when I took this amazing break from eating higher oxalate foods that I really didn’t like almonds. That’s what I was stunned by. I was like, I had no idea how much I preferred as you suggested salted macadamia nuts.
Cynthia: It made me very happy and they’re low carb, too.
Teri: Yeah, they are. Interestingly enough, almonds are one of the highest oxalate load of the plant kingdom. Almonds, spinach, and black beans carry the highest oxalate burden. Similar to me, when I was trying to eat almonds and my gut was always a wreck. My tipping point now is when I have too many oxalates, I feel I have crystals on the bottoms of my feet. I’m really becoming a little– It hurts to walk. I know I better get off those blackberries and really tune it down. Now, to your listening audience, that’s not to say, you will never have a berry or you will never have spinach. It’s just doing that beautiful dance and also being empowered and in alignment with, “Okay, I’m not afraid and I’m not going to freak out. Oh, yeah, I hit that little tipping point. Let me just back off a little bit.” You do and within a few days, because the body’s very forgiving when we can read it and really understand what it’s trying to tell us. You’ll be fine, but you can’t do it over time because you won’t be fine.
Cynthia: Absolutely. There’s a terminology that you used earlier in our conversation about liver detoxification. Unfortunately, I feel the word “detox or detoxification” has really become trendy. People don’t really understand that our body is designed ideally to detoxify on its own, but it’s our modern-day lifestyles, our modern-day nutrition, our modern-day exposure to toxins and our personal care products nutrition and our environment that can offset this detoxification process. So, could we touch on this, because this is an area where I feel I get a lot of questions. Women genuinely want to do all they can to support their bodies as naturally as possible. Sometimes, we need help from the outside world.
Teri: Absolutely. Detoxification has two phases. Liver detoxification has Phase 1 and this is what I call spring cleaning. This is where it gets messy before we put it back in the drawers. In this Phase 1, we’re creating, it’s called intermediary metabolites that messes things up. We put it out there, so then the sixth phase is a phase to liver detoxification can wipe it down, take it out, and everybody’s happy. But again, back to your genetic predispositions, there are certain constituents in foods, and drugs, and even supplements that will slow that Phase 1. If you’re slow, you’re in trouble. One of the biggest and largest touted antioxidants in the marketplace today and I say, buyer beware, and this is where you need to know your genes is turmeric and curcumin. Highly touted as a master antioxidant. Well, hey, guess what folks, if you have that CYP2D6 just like I do, one of these little guys are having trouble today. Then, it can slow your Phase 1 liver detoxification by up to 50%.
Cynthia, I had a woman, who had come to see me for the first time and she says, “I don’t understand what’s happening. Over five weeks, I’ve gained 15 pounds.” I’m like, “You are super fluff.” You could see the edema in her hands, in her feet, in her face, so fluff. What we were able to figure out that she had that CYP2D6 and she was drinking turmeric tea three times a day. That one tea alone had backed up her liver, which backed her lymph, which made her hypothyroid and ruined her periods. It’s really interesting how turmeric, curcumin, if you have another gene SNP in that Phase 1 liver detoxification, grapefruit could be a problem. That’s why they say, “Don’t take your pharmaceuticals with grapefruit.” Why? Well, some people can do it, because I don’t have that gene, but we don’t get that granular in medicine. But if you do, it can slow that pharmaceutical won’t be metabolized by a third. So, it just all of a sudden got stronger and that’s why we have these black box warnings on certain pharmaceuticals that say, “Hey, if you do this, that can happen.”
Well, I believe that what’s happened is a scientist has said, “Look, you have these genetic polymorphisms that could be [unintelligible [00:32:08] box”. What I hope one day, Cynthia, is that when they are labeled that they will say, “If you have this genetic SNP, do not take this.” So, you don’t even have to go through the experiment of that problem, which potentially could be lethal and so, that’s Phase 1.
Cynthia: A question for you. So, the young woman that you’re mentioning that was drinking that turmeric tea three times a day with her polymorphisms and SNPs, could she have had it once or twice a week? So, I’m wondering if it’s the frequency with which she was consuming it that caused that tipping point in terms of things not working efficiently, but her Phase 1 liver detoxification being so thrown off.
Teri: Right. I think it’s all the organization and the orchestration of what else she’s taking. With zinc, with vitamin C, those upregulate Phase 1 liver detoxification. It’s a push pull. She could have drunk that one or twice a week if she was having these other elements that was helping to counterbalance that slowing of that detoxification. But also, as she was taking glutathione, which also slows Phase 1 and is an impairment in sulfur processing, then you are getting a one, two punch glutathione also touted as a wonderful antioxidant, but not for those of us that have impaired Phase 1 like me and/or self-impaired sulfur processing like me. It really depends on what counterbalances are you adding to your world to allow you to manage these things. For example, zinc is phenomenal for me, because I am such a slow Phase 1. Since I’ve started taking and I love zinc carnosine, I take it every day. It has really helped my liver detoxification, and it has really helped my insulin balancing and glucose balancing, because it’s really fire-started at Phase 1, where I’m detoxifying, that means that I’m better at utilizing my insulin, because it has to be managed at the liver. It is really this beautiful dance. That’s why practitioners like you and I having this information is super valuable, because we’re giving our clients, patients, all that they need to understand this dance on how they should best support detoxification. So, it’s really, really important.
Then, methylation in Phase 2 as we’ve talked about, it’s just like Uber king methylation, and sulfation, and amino acid conjugation. I think those are the big three in Phase 2 liver detoxification. To your point about your relative is that, just because you have the MTHFR gene, it doesn’t mean that you should take a lot of B vitamins. This is where you look at the cons, the orchestration of what other gene SNPs do you have that can actually make you over methylate? If you do B12, it’s actually a buzzy bee. I say, “Do you have a helper bee or a buzzy bee?” If you’re taking a lot of B vitamins, you have a lot of other genes that can be over methylators, then, that B12 becomes buzzy. Don’t take B12. Take choline instead that helps to manage that out. So, you can find other ways to methylate without a ton of B or folate.
Cynthia: Well, I think the other thing that’s really fascinating and I know when I was healing from my hospitalization, I craved meat, and I craved oranges, and I craved peppers. I remember our conversation, you were saying, “This makes complete sense.” I craved eggs. That was the other thing and it was like the choline, and vitamin C, and all the things because I was also anemic. I think it’s really fascinating that our body oftentimes will crave the types of vitamins, minerals, etc., that we need, but we sometimes don’t acknowledge that. I think there’s a lot of focus on sugar cravings and salt cravings, which can also be indicative of imbalances in the body. When I crave salt, I know my adrenals need more support. I always say, if I want to chip or I’m craving salty food, there’s something that’s definitely off for sure. There’s one more Phase 2 detoxification that occurs in the gut and this comes back to our original conversation talking about dysbiosis, the weeds in the garden. For many, many women that don’t have good, properly functioning detoxification pathways, if they’re not properly breaking down estrogen, here’s the really funny thing. They’ll say but I have a bowel movement every day and I always say, that’s great. But even if you’re having a bowel movement every day, you may not be breaking down and excreting the excess estrogen and most if not all women that at least I come across even in menopause, even in perimenopause are estrogen dominant, they can’t get rid of this extra estrogen. What is your traditional focus or methodology dealing with that?
Teri: Great question. Again, as we’ve talked about, yeah, that estrogen spin cycle especially with that dysbiotic gut and the beta-glucuronidase is elevated. So, it depends. Calcium-D-glucarate is really wonderful. Calcium-D-glucarate is an aromatase inhibitor. It helps to break down that estrogen. The reason why I like Calcium-D-glucarate is, in my studies, it also has shown that it can lower LDL cholesterol by up to 29%. Why is that important? Because cholesterol, estrogen, and thyroid are linked. When I see elevated triglycerides, I looked at the thyroid. When I see elevated TSH, I looked at the liver to see if triglycerides are elevated. They’re simpatico in terms of another key piece of information that many doctors miss. Calcium-D-glucarate can also manage all of that. If you have beta-glucuronidase, we have an elevated enzyme, then we may need something to manage the dysbiosis. I really like mastic gum. It’s a tree resident. It’s really great for H. pylori, which also can dysregulate bacterial balance. I love Caprin which is wonderful for Candida. When we lower Candida, we will also help regulate estrogen. There’s something called DIM, which has indole-3-carbinol that really helps to pull estrogen, however cautionary if you’re hypothyroid and have goitrogens, DIM is made from cruciferous vegetables, cruciferous are goitrogens. We have to look at that nuance.
Another thing we might need is, hey, we need a little progesterone. Instead of trying to pull estrogen, let’s just manage it with a little progesterone. But again, rarely do I say, go to bioidentical or actually pharmaceutical progesterone and progestin, those are like bazookas. Instead, why don’t we do a little bit of chaste tree berry or vitex, which actually will bring up natural progesterone levels. Do we actually need to manage the cortisol that’s making estrogen, because its feeding, cortisol is that dirty cupcake, that adrenaline dirty cupcake cortisol is actually feeding the Candida, is actually making the estrogen too high? Let’s just look at the adrenals. Let’s give ourselves a little bit of ashwagandha, or astragalus, or some magnesium, or some salt. Again, progesterone because we get that progesterone steal when we’re making too much cortisol. So, many ways to skin this little kitty, but those are really good things to look at, again, looking at the granularity of you.
Cynthia: No, I think it’s really important. It’s so helpful even for me and for listeners, they know I take copious notes, I do copious amounts of preparation, and I literally have every square inch of this piece of paper in front of me, because I do my intros after we record. There will be no more space. Everything is going to be covered, because I’m loving all of the Terisms, the dirty cupcake and fluffy. All of these things really make it so much easier to understand for people that are not medical professionals, these potentially intangible kinds of concepts. So, so, so helpful. On so many levels, I think that we really do ourselves a disservice when we assume that everything needs to be– the knee flex reaction is that everything needs to be a prescription medication. So, there really are pharmaceutical grade supplements that can be profoundly impactful for patients.
Now, let’s pivot a little bit. And I think given the fact I’ve got this gravelly voice, the role and function of the immune system is very timely for about a thousand different reasons. Obviously, I know why I got sick. It was not enough sleep, husband traveling, not getting to bed on time, because I’m picking up teenagers from sports granted that– these are all choices I made. However, when we’re talking about the role of hormones and immune function, this is particularly relevant and certainly timely.
Teri: Absolutely. We know that over 70% of our immune system lives in the gut. So back to the gut. We got to start in the gut, because so many hormones are assimilated and made in the gut. A lot of thyroid hormones are made in the gut. We assimilate and break down the excess estrogen and progesterone. All of those hormones are assimilated, and actually broken out, and we say, “Go, bye-bye” when we flush the toilet. Immune system function has many, many wheel that I look at stressing the body. You don’t have to be emotionally stressed. It’s not like you’re having to have a life event to trip your immune system. The actual stressors of the body pushing that accelerator on hours on the go, lack of rest in between, not enough sleep because we break and make hormones during sleep hours. It’s a really big detoxifier when we sleep, but it also is a way that we are operating in removing those hormones that we need and making the hormones that we need. The melatonin, the serotonin as well that helps induce sleep. So, clearly, sleep is super important and the quality of sleep is super important. That’s why I have an Oura ring. I look at my heart rate variability, I look at my restful sleep. Did I have REMs, did I have deep sleep, what was my heart rate? So, I look to that.
Then, I take things at night to help us, like magnesium, you and I both love magnesium, we love my stress remover. I take it every night. GABA is super important as a neurotransmitter that calms, but it also helps regulate so many hormones. To the immune system back to zinc, zinc has been such a champion in modulating immune system function, because it has so many hormone downstream impacts. It helps with insulin, it helps with thyroid functions, carnosine in particular helps manage the lining of the gut. So, that’s a big winner. We also like to look at all– really supporting the adrenals. The adrenals, they’re the glands that produce the natural corticosteroids of epinephrine and cortisol. When we use them appropriately, they are amazing because they lower the inflammatory response.
When we whack out our adrenals, that anti-inflammatory response isn’t there. What is the fire starter for getting sick, inflammation? Looking to really loving those adrenals, if you’ve had a rough day, a long day, put a little heat on those adrenals which sit right on top of your kidney. If you put your hands on your waist, your second and third finger will find your adrenals. A little heat on the adrenals, a little bit of holy basil tea is actually quite wonderful for adrenal function. Rose tea, these calmatives, a little L-theanine, which helps modulate that dopamine. We had taurine, which really helps with dopamine and serotonin. If you need that melatonin, I saw one of your Instagram’s, where you have this melatonin, really big boy that says, “Oh, my gosh, this is really helping me sleep.”
We also have to look at melatonin because those of us that have the MAOA polymorphism, if you take melatonin, you’ll be up all night. [giggles] Again, looking at those, the genetic granularity of you and if that gene is expressed, so really eating the right foods that’s going to create a wonderful gut environment. Again, if we have a lot of bullies in the sandbox, a lot of probiotics may not be good for you or if you have high histamine, we have to look at histamine from an inflammatory response. If we’re having high histamine and we’re trying to overpopulate the gut with probiotics, that could be a problem, and is creating more of a histamine response. Taking manganese, which lowers histamine or taking quercetin with bromelain, which is wonderful, and a histamine bioflavonoid helps seal the tight junctions of the gut. It also helps move zinc into ourselves. Things like that, vitamin C is an antioxidant, a Phase 1 liver up-regulator. an adrenal supporter. Things like zinc, quercetin, vitamin C, vitamin D, we’re now heading into the winter months, we lose vitamin D. Vitamin D also linked to hormone health. Guys it is a pre-hormone. D is a pre-hormone and it helps manage cholesterol, it helps with insulin, it helps with thyroid, also the immune system. It’s important.
Cynthia: No, it really isn’t. It’s interesting on my desk, which of course, viewers can’t see this. I have mixed ascorbates, because I was talking about this today, as well as capsules of vitamin C, because I was talking in the context of making sure that you are stocked up for what products are going to be beneficial to preemptively try to stay healthy throughout the winter. I do have melatonin on my desk. What you saw on my Insta stories today was, a colleague had mentioned a product called the SandMan. Because I’m always fascinated with trying new things, I bought SandMan. They are per rectal suppositories, a super physiologic melatonin. I doubled my deep sleep on 200 milligrams of melatonin. This is what’s important. We make less melatonin as we get older. That’s a normal function of aging. We also don’t recognize that melatonin is more than a hormone. It’s not just in the hormone bucket, it’s a master antioxidant. I won’t use this every night, of course, but it was fascinating to me when I took it and my concern was, “Oh my gosh, what if–?” I am one of those people who gets stimulated without much melatonin. Thankfully, I didn’t, I fell asleep effortlessly. But it was amazing to see the net impact on my sleep quality.
Here’s the other thing. What I understand about melatonin is, people can take larger doses for a short duration of time. Maybe they’re trying to replenish, which should have been there. But it’s also more important that we’re mitigating and ensuring that we are properly regulating the secretion of melatonin. This is a good example. We are recording it almost [5:30] at night. I’ve got artificial light on, it’s getting dusky outside, I’m not wearing blue blockers. But as soon as we are done, I will make sure I put those on, so that I’m not going to have an adverse impact on my sleep. I love that you touched on this complex interrelationship between all of these hormones and neurotransmitters. There are a lot of connections that you make in your work that were so new for me that every time I would meet with Teri, I was taking notes. Just like that, today, I’m taking notes, because there’s so many interconnections that we just don’t learn about.
Now, one thing that I do want to touch on. We talked about the role of the gut health on how we metabolize estrogen, how it impacts immune health. We talked a little bit about the net impact of our exposure to pesticides and what that can do to the gut microbiome, and also small intestinal hyperpermeability. What is one thing that we haven’t touched on that you think is really helpful or would be very helpful for listeners to consider when they’re making nutritional choices? Because let me back up for one second. One thing that you’re known for is encouraging people to consume Wildatarian lifestyle. This is a term that you have coined and certainly working with you personally and professionally, we have been trying different types of protein. Bison is now a favorite. Wild boar, ostrich, we’re not sure about– I’m not sure that will be our first choice, but trying different types of proteins as opposed to just the conventional chicken, pork, beef, if we want to say those are the most conventional options that are out there. Because most if not all of us are not consuming enough protein. We consume far too many processed carbs, not enough of the right kind of fats and certainly insufficient quality types of protein.
Teri: Great question and indeed you, and I, and Gabrielle Lyon, we all are very pro as Dave Asprey is very pro-protein, because we do need that. Protein is the building block of life. It’s really interesting, Cynthia that in order to make one strand of muscle fiber, we have to break down protein and recombine them into 5,300 amino acids to make one strand of muscle. If you are plant-based folks, that takes a whole heck of a lot of work to put together 5,300, hemoglobin, collagen, and muscle or the largest proteins that our body needs. One of my signature discoveries, which I’m really proud of is that, I found through my clinical, empirical anecdotal information through my clients, but also through literature that was out there as a result of trying to find a solution to an end-stage cancer client is that, the proteins that we are eating, that domesticated animal protein, in particular, chicken, which has many studies around it, and then beef, pork, and turkey, domesticated animal meat contains these, in many cases, indigestible truncated, broken-down proteins by the name of amyloids. We know about the amyloids of Alzheimer’s. But we also received the amyloids are related to cancer, it’s related to kidney disease, related to autoimmunity, related to dementia, related to heart disease.
It’s a big thing that we have yet to elucidate as a contributor to chronic illness in the US. Where did these truncated protein structures or why did they show up? Well, the studies show that the crowding conditions, of course, they’re being fed all the wrong things. But the crowding conditions and the stress hormones are creating these protein structures in their tissue that cannot be broken down by cooking alone. When we ingest them and we have endogenous– That means that inside of us we make amyloids. Amyloids in their natural state are a balancing mechanism. They’re homeostatic. They create a little bit of inflammation, so the body can go, “Okay, I need to do something.” If our adrenals are working right, then it’s going to do everything we need and then we come back to balance. But when we hit a tipping point with these external amyloids, what we have found in the clinical research show and our clinical outcomes prove is that, it’s contributing to a reactivation of viral loads, bacterial loads of all these pathogens, which then trip the genes, which then create the symptomology. and here we go. We got this whole milieu of bad boy things that we’ve just talked about. So, I really encourage your listeners to go wild, that we found that undomesticated things that were we really like, you don’t have to go and hunt it. But animals such as bison, and elk, and venison, and New Zealand lamb, those types, wild boar, elk, that they contain a less of an amyloid burden. When that happens, our amino acid utilization goes through the roof.
You know, Cynthia, that I work with some of the top athletes in the world and we have really proven this when we make them wildatarian, their performance equally improves. We’re maximizing the human potential by adopting a wildatarian approach and then matching that genetic imprint to that current state of health. But proteins, I say chicken is the dirty bird. Just like we have killer kale, chicken is the dirty bird. It’s an inflammatory omega-6. It’s been linked to increasing E. coli. It’s the most studied in terms of the amyloid burden. We had a client who was a type 1 diabetic. He came to see me because he had osteomyelitis. That is flesh-eating bacteria, actually bone eating bacteria and flesh eating. It was unrelenting. He’d been on eight rounds of antibiotics and there was nothing to be done. We found out that he had Strep and Candida, and he had a viral reactivation, which was being burdened by the foods he was eating. He was trying to eat a lot of chicken. It resolved within eight weeks and he had one meal of chicken and we were able to lower his insulin in concert with a doctor by 90%. Insulin use by 90% lowered and his blood sugar was from 400 to 120. He had one meal of chicken and it increased by 200 points for four days. He thought it was an anomaly, he waited a month, he did it again. Chicken is really a dirty bird. We have other options. It’s such a mainstay in our diet. I’m telling you folks, I have not had one piece of chicken in almost five years and my muscle mass, my insulin regulation, my dad became a type 1 diabetic in adult life. My hemoglobin A1c I just got it measured. It’s 4.9. That’s amazing. So, eating and adapting a wildatarian approach, I’m actually metabolically de-aging, because my markers have improved, because I’m actually able to use those amino acids and my inflammatory markers are much better. It’s a real thing.
Cynthia: I think it’s really important, because my listeners are very familiar with Gabrielle Lyon’s work and it’s overwhelming to them to consume that much protein, because most if not all women are eating way too little amounts of protein. But explaining it that way, it almost sounds Darwinian that these crowded conditions create these unhealthy birds, which we then consume, which we can’t break down and assimilate the protein into the proper amino acid structure that we need for our body. It’s almost like we’re overfed but undernourished. That’s how I think about it. Much to your point, I think, on many levels when my family and I eat, we were very conscientious about how we source our meat. Certainly, now, I think bison is even more popular in my house than beef is and we are very a meat centric family for sure.
But it’s interesting to me, when I talk to people and they say when I went to Montana, we had elk. People think that seems so strange. I said, no, actually we’re in a part of the country, where elk are indigenous and we thought we would try it as a family. We’ll try it all together. We started with elk sausage and it wasn’t gamey. I think that was my expectation. Having venison and finding venison, very gamey. But the other piece that I want to tie into that is, I’m someone who still is fat malabsorbed. My body naturally gravitates towards lower fat meats. If my family of four sit down for a steak, two of us like filet, two will have ribeye, everyone’s happy. Now, if the people who love ribeye eat filet, they’ll eat it, but they don’t enjoy it. However, if my older son and I try to sit down and have a ribeye, it’s way too rich to the point where it can’t take more than a bite or two. I find that fascinating that my body on its own will identify that for me bio individual level, my body can’t properly break down those fats the way that maybe someone else’s body will.
Teri: Absolutely and that’s the beauty of the body talk. You’ve become facile in body talk. Now, you recognize, “Oh, I’ve had this oxalate. I had too much, I had a tipping point that I have plantar fasciitis or I have a loose stool. I ate this fattier cut of meat and now I’m feeling that fluffy fat metabolism impairment,” because you understand it. This is the power of the work of understanding my nature and not in a static way, but in a dynamic way. Women who are cycling, we tell them, look, if you even have a little bit of fat metabolism impairment, zero fat during your periods and your mid cycle, because you’re having a shift in hormones, you’re going to be really estrogen dominant during that first three days before to the first three days after your period. And also, when you ovulate, if you’re progesterone deficient, you’re still going to be estrogen dominant as that progesterone is supposed to be coming up and estrogen supposed to be coming down. Zero to no fat. We’ve had just tremendous success in that dance around, there are 28 to 30 something days cycle for women they are menstruating. So, super important to know your body, and know your genes, and understand how food can be really a healer or a poison, and everywhere in between.
Cynthia: No, and I think it’s important that the bio-individuality piece is really stressed, because there are people listening that can probably tolerate oxalates, high fat meat with no issues, but there are just as many who don’t and they may not realize that their body isn’t tolerating it. Now, I want to be respectful of your time, but I have one more little piece that I want to tie in here. Now, Teri has some amazing supplements and one of the things and actually, I have it on my desk, [unintelligible [00:57:46], which I take everywhere with me, and I think is also super helpful with hydration, and travel, and all the things. But when we’re talking about stress, you have a specific supplement that really helps with stress. So, let’s touch on as the last piece of what we’re discussing and how those specific elements in that supplement are beneficial to mitigating and managing stress.
Teri: Thank you, Cynthia. I love stress reliever [unintelligible [00:58:12] I’m really proud of its formulation. It’s a Teri Cochrane own formulation, which is made through biotics research, but it’s my formulation. As we said, stress is really the fire starter to everything. Part of the Cochrane method, it starts with calm the body first, because if you’re trying to manage anything outside of a calm environment, it’s going to take three times to a power of x the amount of work to get back to balance. What I love about this supplementation is, it hits many levels of what can cause an inflammatory response. One of the things that’s little understood in a stress response, which is an excitatory neurotransmitter is histamine. We have manganese in there, but just small enough that it modulates that histamine response, because we can get super anxious just by histamine alone. It has taurine. Why do I love taurine? Well, taurine, for those of us that have the methylation C, it helps to make bile salts. It’s a natural precursor to dopamine. It helps with DNA methylation. It even helps shunt that overactive HPA axis which I love.
Another thing that I love is the phosphatidylserine, which is made from sunflower oil lecithin, not soy. Remember, ladies, soy is an estrogen even if it’s lecithin less. I chose to have sunflower lecithin in there, which also modulates the epinephrine, that dirty cupcake that we talked about. It also has a little bit of glycine in there. Why is that so important? Because trimethylglycine is so important in methylation and it helps with protein malabsorption, and it helps with serotonin as a precursor to serotonin. These elements, and a little bit of rhodiola that really helps support those adrenals. So back to that great adrenal support. I have to tell you, this has just been roundly applauded as the chill pill, the God pill, the lock and load pill, because you’re not going to feel woozy. You’re going to feel super aligned, but one of our practitioners that actually sells it in her company did a Facebook live. She said, “I take it and my heart rate variability doubles at night.” That’s what’s happened to me as well. Much like your melatonin, this is our little secret sauce for improved heart rate variability at night when you need to really rest soundly, but also locks and loads you during the day. And again stress is the fire starter of all fire starters. So, I really love that supplement and very easily tolerated even by children.
Cynthia: Yeah, no, it’s definitely one of my favorites. Well, I like all of your supplements, It is definitely a favorite of mine. Let the listeners know how to connect with you, how to learn more about your business, and the very unique perspective you provide in the health and wellness space. I am very transparent, and I am very, very transparent, and say that, when we first met, we recorded a podcast together in 2019. After speaking with you, I brought my older son. I realized I needed to become a patient that I brought my younger son with me and I do feel that the work we’ve done together for me has healed me in so many ways physically, emotionally, and psychologically. So, I want to publicly acknowledge that. But how can people connect with you and learn more about you?
Teri: Well, that’s so generous and you know, I love you. I’m so happy and just honored to be part of your journey as well. We are on social media. So, tericochrane.com is my website and we are all about education. We’ve just launched a new website, where we’ve started to upload many of the blogs that we’ve created. You can buy our supplements there. The Wildatarian book Living As Nature Intended, that’s on Amazon. We have two book consultations with us, myself and my naturopath. I am now not seeing clients, because I’m booked through April of 2022. If you do want to see me, please be patient. But Dr. Carla, who’s phenomenal and is trained under the Cochrane method has a little bit more of an open schedule. We’re also coming out with hopefully, the Cochrane method, the teaching mechanism for this in 2020 to the second half of 2022. Take our wild type quiz, find out what type of wildatarian you are. That’s on our website. It’s very, very interesting and you’re going to say, “Oh, my gosh, this is me, this is me, this is me” and it’s going to give you some education. So, we’re here to educate, we’re here to empower, we’re here to put everyone back into their sovereign power with information that is specific to you. So, happy to be part of this podcast and thank you for having me.
Cynthia: Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. It’s always a joy.
Cynthia: If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review, subscribe and tell a friend.