Ep. 339 Decoding DNA: Genes, Mood, and Health Impact with Kashif Khan

Today, I have the privilege of engaging with Kashif Khan.

Kashif is the author of The DNA Way. He is also a two-time TEDx speaker, a celebrity longevity coach, and Founder of The DNA Company, an innovative company at the forefront of personalized medicine that has leveraged unique insights into the human genome. 

In our conversation today, we dive into the impact of our current healthcare system and share daily practices to help men and women enhance their longevity. We discuss the genome, considerations for bio-individuality and genetics, and how mood and behavior impact our overall well-being. Kashif also addresses some issues women face in midlife, including sleep problems, weight loss resistance, and bone health. 

I am sure anyone seeking a deeper understanding of these matters will find our discussion significant and most valuable.

“If you look at the human genome and the 22,000, approximately genes that make up your genetic structure, 2000 of them require adequate vitamin D.”

– Kashif Khan

IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:

• How the focus of our current healthcare system is on symptom management, not prevention
• The fundamental principles of the 2018 Harvard study on five practices that every male and female can do to live longer
• Kashif explains how his company created a tool to make genetic testing more accessible and personalized 
• Why personalization in healthcare is so important
• How dopamine pathways affect the perception of pleasure and reward
• The symptoms of serotonin dysregulation
• Sleep disruptions and circadian rhythm in perimenopause and menopause
• How circadian rhythm disruptions can lead to sleep problems
• How our emotional intelligence impacts our ability to connect and empathize with others
• How broken detox pathways can lead to inflammation and disease
• How hormone dominance affects menopause, weight loss, and overall health

Bio:

Kashif Khan is the author of The DNA Way, a two-time TedX Speaker, Celebrity longevity coach, and Founder of The DNA Company, where personalized medicine is being pioneered through unique insights into the human genome.

Growing up in Vancouver, Canada in an immigrant household, Kashif developed an industrious entrepreneurial spirit from a young age. Before his tenure at the DNA Company, Kashif advised several high-growth start-ups in a variety of industries.

As Kashif dove into the field of functional genomics as the Founder of The DNA Company, it was revealed that his neural wiring was genetically designed to be entrepreneurial. However, his genes also revealed a particular sensitivity to pollutants.

Connect with Cynthia Thurlow

• Twitter
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• LinkedIn
• Check out Cynthia’s website
• Submit your questions to support@cynthiathurlow.com

Connect with Kashif Khan

• On Instagram
• On his website  
• Go to Kashif’s special landing page  
• The DNA Company

Transcript

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:01] Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I’m your host, Nurse Practitioner, Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower, and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.

[00:00:29] Today, I had the honor of connecting with Kashif Khan. He’s the author of the DNA Way, a two-time TEDx speaker, celebrity, longevity coach, and founder of the DNA company, where personalized medicine is being pioneered through unique insights into the human genome. We dove into the impact of our current healthcare system, the role of practices that men and women can do on a daily basis that can impact longevity, the role of bio-individuality and genetics, the impact of mood and behavior and the genome, key issues for midlife women, including sleep problems, weight loss resistance, bone health, and more. I know you will find this to be an invaluable conversation.

[00:01:16] Well, Kashif, it’s so good to have you on the podcast. I’ve really been looking forward to this conversation. 

Kashif Khan: [00:01:20] It’s a pleasure. I’m so happy to be here with you. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. And there’s a quote in the book that when I read it, it really made a great deal of sense. And it’ll date me because I know who Walter Cronkite is [Kashif Laughs] But his quote was, “America’s healthcare system is neither healthy, caring, nor a system.” And so, let’s start the conversation there, talking about how our traditional allopathic medicine system is really not focused on prevention, it’s focused on symptom management and in many ways, when I was prepping for this, I looked at the Centers for Medicaid and Medicare, and they were talking about the US healthcare spending grew 4.1% in 2022, reaching $4.5 trillion, or $13,493 per person as a share of the nation’s gross domestic product, health spending accounted for 17.3%. That’s astounding.

Kashif Khan: [00:02:15] Yeah, it’s shocking and we’re uniquely, you have the wealthiest empire that’s ever existed, with the sickest population and the most healthcare spending. And if you look at the spending, it’s not on healthcare, it’s not on keeping people healthy. It’s on masking diseases that we create and cause because of other systems that are also over budgeted. And it’s funny that quote that you pulled, I remember being at the Dave Asprey Biohacking Conference, and I was talking to him on stage and people were kind of getting an idea of like, “What’s going on?” And I mentioned that quote and there was pin drop silence, because everybody has a story that can relate back to, “Yes, that’s absolutely true. Whether it’s themselves or their family or their kids whatever. It’s like that’s what I went through.” This system is not designed to help me. 

[00:02:56] And so, what started off with incredible technology for incredible acute care, created this toolkit that doesn’t fit the mold of what chronic disease management needs. We don’t need to respond. We need to understand what’s coming in the future. GPS that shows you what’s coming and detour and avoid, but we don’t do that. And our belief, in a nutshell, is I can go do whatever I want. And when I break something, it’s a doctor’s job to fix me. That should not be your belief. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:03:20] Yeah, well, and it’s interesting for me. I mean, the listeners know this. I left clinical cardiology in 2016 because I was, frankly, tired of writing prescriptions for lifestyle-related diseases. And it was becoming increasingly apparent to me that although I love the patients that I was working with, I love everything about cardiology, we were waiting for people to get worsening symptoms, more diabetes medications, more antihypertensives, more diagnostics instead of really honing in on how lifestyle really contributes to, as an example, poor metabolic health, and helping arm our patients proactively with, let’s focus on sleep, let’s manage your stress, let’s change your nutrition, let’s move our bodies, very macro focused areas that traditional allopathic medicine doesn’t really focus on. 

[00:04:09] And I want to be clear, if you get sick in this country acutely, like, I had a ruptured appendix and spent 13 days in the hospital, I’m grateful for the type of care that we have because we do a really good job with emergencies, urgencies, and surgeries, but we don’t do such a great job with prevention in most instances. We don’t do a great job on chronic disease management. And we’ve largely convinced patients to just take more pills or more prescriptions to address lifestyle-related issues. I know that’s something that you see even in Canada, it’s not unique to the United States. And so, it was interesting, you mentioned a study that was done in 2018 in circulation that was done through the School of Public Health at Harvard. It was five practices every male and female could do to extend their lifespan.

[00:04:54] And for listeners, I literally almost fell out of my chair because I said to my husband, these are such fundamental principles and these are the things we really should stay focused on as clinicians and just as human beings. 

Kashif Khan: [00:05:05] So, essentially, when you read that study, what you’re really being told that the framing is, here’s things you can do to live longer. On average, we live to 78 as a woman, 76 as a man. If you do these things, you might get to 90. But what we’re really saying is you should have been 90 or 100 or even 120 if you didn’t screw up and do the wrong thing. Because what are those things are saying? eat properly, don’t be obese, don’t smoke, don’t drink, exercise, and essentially manage your stress. It’s like, “Okay, that’s what you’re supposed to do.” Harvard also has another interesting study. It’s the longest lasting health study that we know of. It started in the 1930s. It’s still ongoing. They’ve been through 70,000 something people. 

[00:05:45] And what they’re looking for is, what’s that one thing we can find that points to longevity, that if you adopt this one thing, that you’re going to live longer, and it’s the quality of your relationships that’s what they landed on because of stress. This silent killer in the background, which is the reality we live in. We live in a soup of stress all the time. So, all we’re saying is that we have this infrastructure, this hardware, this wiring, and then we have our habits. Those two things don’t seem to align. And the little work of exercise, eat, don’t smoke, don’t drink, etc., is going to give you an extra decade. That’s what Harvard is saying. So, imagine how sick we are. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:06:18] Yeah. And it’s interesting, when I read that, I thought to myself, this is how far off base we’ve gotten.

Kashif Khan: [00:06:24]. Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:06:25] We’re doing these studies and this is the way that we are aligned as human beings to be living. And yet we are in our harried, hectic lifestyle. Certainly, the pandemic didn’t do anyone any benefits in terms of managing their stress. But what I love about the work that you have done and what you have created is it’s helping people understand their unique bio-individuality, and doing so with testing to look at our genetics and do it in a way that’s very approachable. I think there are probably people that would say it’s like Alphabet soup.

[00:06:55] I don’t totally understand all these genetic SNPs or these markers, but it is helpful to explain not only behavior, but also our propensity for an example maybe some people have more propensity for dealing with anxiety or depression or ADHD or fat malabsorption or for me, I’m a terrible detoxifier in my body, and a lot of it is genetically mediated. It makes so much sense. In fact, it’s very validating. How did you stumble or evolve into this space where you’ve been able to take what is what I think to be a very complicated topic and make it accessible for providers and for patients as well?

Kashif Khan: [00:07:34] So, I had to, let’s say, dumb it down to the point where I could use it. Because I don’t come from the industry. When you see a lot of functional health type stories, it’s often the same story, the same journey of, I was sick, nothing worked, I needed to go fix myself, and I figured out this thing, this Eureka moment that was like, “Wow, I need to scream from the rooftops. Everyone needs to know”. And that’s what happened to me. I had never been sick until the age of 38, no issues, and all of a sudden, five chronic conditions all at once. And my question to these five doctors with five pills was, “Why? What did I do? What did I eat wrong? Did I breathe wrong? What’s going on?” 

[00:08:09] Because it didn’t add up that all of a sudden, all these switches would turn on. I didn’t just have these things. And the answer I was getting was, we don’t really do that here [Cynthia laughs] in a nutshell, if I were to translate and I learned, okay, I got to learn myself and dig. And so, I did. And I had some friends that were in the functional medicine space, and for the first time, knocked on the door and asked for help. And I started to learn how my body actually worked. And I started to learn that there was a little bit of uniqueness, there was a little bit of personalization required to truly understand and answer that question of why did I get sick versus my business partner, who was in the same office as me, versus my kids, who were in the same home as me, did not have these same problems. 

[00:08:41] And if I were to give you an example, and this is what led me to genetics, first of all, the first genetic test I did, I threw in the trash and said, this stuff doesn’t work. It’s telling me I have an 80% chance of this, 60%– I have something today. Why do I have it? That’s what I want to know. And so, I started to dig. But there were some red flags that pointed to propensities and led me down this rabbit hole. And eventually one insight got me thinking that this tool needs to be made easier to use.

[00:09:10] The data is there, the information is there, but the data is dumb right now. Nobody’s asking the right questions. I found that there’s a gene called GSTM1 that is a primary detoxifier of the gut. So, your glutathione pathway, it drives glutathionylation of all these various jurisdictions in the body. I don’t have the gene in my gut, so it’s not only about a SNP or a version of it. Literally, I don’t have, it’s missing from my genetic code. And so, the same foods that I was eating with my business partner at these work lunches, the same packaging and pesticides, and whatever was coming along with it caused me crazy inflammation that he did not have an issue with. And so that was what started me down this path of that. 

[00:09:50] This is an aha moment, this is personalization that it’s like Paramount Foundation. So, I decided to take the keys to my business, which was I helped startup companies in the technology space grow, hand them to my business partner, and said, I think I found my purpose and I have to go work on it now, and let’s see what happens. So, I funded the research. We spent three years studying 7000 patients, because that’s the gap that I could see looking as an outsider in that there was a really good understanding of academic genetics, functional medicine knew how the body worked. These two people didn’t talk. So, I set up clinical practice and spent three years, one by one by one, resolving 7000 problems in 7000 people and documenting each one of them.

[00:10:34] As opposed to this evidence-based clinical study model, which averages things out. I did the opposite, 7000 anecdotes. And now when somebody says something, we know why it’s happening, we know the underlying biology that drives it. And that’s when I had to figure out what to do with this project, I just created for myself. And so, we built the company around it to help people. And that’s where we’re at now. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:10:52] It’s really exciting because we met in October to review my results. And obviously I know quite a bit about, I have poor methylation as an example, and we’ll probably get to that. But it was very validating when you and I connected, to properly understand what is unique about me, that makes me more susceptible to some things over others. And cholesterol is one of those things, one of many things. But for listeners to understand, I would love to talk about the impact of our genetics on mood and behavior, because I think this is applicable to everyone. And as a good example, I’m not someone who generally deals with procrastination as an example, I’m someone that generally, if I want to focus, I can focus really easily. 

[00:11:36] But when I was reading the section on procrastination, I was like, “Oh, my gosh, this explains so much about people I’ve met throughout my lifetime who really struggle.” And there’s probably some genetically mediated component here. So, let’s start talking about mood and behavior, because this is applicable to everybody. 

Kashif Khan: [00:11:52] And here’s the interesting thing, is, I do now work with people one on one, not as a regular part of my daily job, let’s say, but I do it, and I refuse to work with anyone unless we start with mood and behavior- 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:12:03] Oh perfect [laughs] 

Kashif Khan: [00:12:03] –and every single time– And that’s where we started with you, every single time half their problem gets resolved when they understand how they think. And there’s no good or bad. It’s just understanding your wiring and then understanding the context you’re in may be misaligned. And that’s the case for most people. And so, for example, if I take me, let’s start with me, and then we’ll also talk about you. The dopamine pathway allows you to experience pleasure or reward, eat some tasty food, achieve something at work. Both of those things are ultimately satisfaction. 

[00:12:34] That’s what dopamine is pushing you towards, which drives us forward. It’s a success gene, let’s call it that if you truly understand what it’s doing. The way we experience that there’s a pathway and system, and this is really important when it comes to genetics. Independent genes don’t tell you the full story. This gene means this, this gene means that. And that’s why clinicians like yourselves get frustrated and throw genetics in the trash and say, “This stuff doesn’t work,” because it’s telling you one step in a cascade of biology, you need to understand the full cascade. Then you can be more certain. So, first step, to what degree do I bind? There’s a gene called DRD2 that determines the density of the receptors in your brain. How intense do I actually experience that pleasure or reward-seeking moment? 

[00:13:13] Then there’s a gene called MAO that metabolizes the dopamine to bring you back to some level of normal. Then there’s a gene called COMT, where a protein comes along and gets rid of everything and truly sweeps it up like a broom, and you’re back to where you started. So, now those three wheels or dials can be turned in any direction and completely change your perception around reward and pleasure. For me, I have the lowest possible density of dopamine receptors, so it’s very hard for me to feel. I have the fastest possible MAO and COMT. So, I’m feeling a way down here and it’s gone like that. This clinically would speak to depression, but I’m not depressed. I have been. That was one of the five chronic conditions because the context was different at the time.

[00:13:55] It also speaks to addiction, because I can’t get no satisfaction, [Cynthia laughs] but I’m not addicted. Where I’m at right now is I’ve gone down the reward-seeking pathway, and I’m highly entrepreneurial. The same wiring can lead to any one of these three outcomes, depending what you’re doing with the tool you’ve been given. And anytime I hear words like anxiety, depression, procrastination, burnout, we start with, you are in the wrong context. There’s a God given gift you have a superpower, and you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time, not using it. 

[00:14:24] This is one of many neurochemicals we can talk about, but take the opposite. Somebody with the maximum dopamine receptor expression and the very slow clearance. This person is content, they’re good. Everything is satisfying them. They’re thinking about the next picnic or vacation to Bali. It doesn’t matter what’s going on, because they’re constantly satisfied getting exactly what they need and not seeking reward. The people around them see them as a flake. Here’s a list of ten things we need to do. Eight of them never start, but because of their ultra slow clearance, they end up binging, and they end up binging on the things that they truly value and give attention to. And so, they do really high-quality work around those things. So, subject matter expert versus the squirrel here, who needs to say yes to every next opportunity. So that one thing paints a big picture, but there’s many more things we can talk about. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:15:15] It’s really interesting, and I think when we spoke, you had indicated that I had faster clearance and imprinting and I had ideal serotonin. That was one of the things that you had emphasized that you’re probably someone that has a high degree of satisfaction, but not to the point where I’m unmotivated. It’s probably been helpful for me because I’ve worked intense environments. I was an ER nurse. I worked in cardiology as an NP. I’m now an entrepreneur. I’m able to have 15 balls up in the air and that doesn’t overwhelm me, that’s something that brings me joy and satisfaction. 

Kashif Khan: [00:15:50] Yeah. That serotonin pathway is misunderstood because it’s treated as a disease marker. Like, do you have depression? And what pill do you need? Serotonin uptake and you take these– What’s the truth? Let’s just jump to the truth. So, the truth is. Yes, serotonin regulates your mood. Yes, it determines are you responding as appropriate for whatever is happening, good or bad, or are you more bipolar outwardly to the people looking at you? But the actual mechanism of that is your brain’s ability to prioritize stimulus. And that means any sound, smell, flavor, or whatever coming into your system. Are we, as we’re speaking right now, focused on each other, as we should be? Or when I hear a ticking in the background of your hubby or your dog or whatever, can I actually pay attention? So, what looks like ADHD looking from outside is actually hypertension.

[00:16:37] It’s not attention deficit. It’s I give attention to everything. So, the outcome of all of this is when your serotonin dysregulated, meaning that your receptor, the actual receptor, and ability to bind serotonin is a little too short. I’m more irritable. Everything pokes at me and bothers me. I have this constant anxiety burning fire in my gut because it all matters. It’s never good enough. I need to do it myself. So, those types of feelings versus you are very healthy. And that was me, by the way.

[00:17:00] Your very healthy serotonin pathway is more macro, high level, visionary. You’re really prioritizing things well, you may ignore some details that are important, you may need people around you to get the details done. When you’re reading a contract, it’s good enough versus the hubby saying, “No, you missed this, this, this, this.” So, the difference in our thinking. Now, again, put that in the right context and you’ll thrive. Put that in the wrong context and you will use words like anxiety, either one of us, if we’re misaligned to our neurochemical wiring.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:17:29] Yeah, it’s so interesting. And as an example, when we’re talking about mood and behavior, let’s talk a little bit about the role of BDNF. So, brain derived neurotrophic factor. Everyone that is in the intermittent fasting space knows this is one of the key benefits you can get in a fasted state. But let’s talk about the net impact on our brain and mood.

Kashif Khan: [00:17:50] So, the primary clinical discussion around it is neuroplasticity, your brain’s ability to develop new neural pathways. A lot of what I’m saying we know because we’ve met 7000 people, not because it’s in a textbook somewhere. This is us talking to 200 people with BDNF dysregulation and saying they all behave the exact same way, and the biology explains it. So, clinically bad neuroplasticity, brain may be aging faster than it should be. There’s things to do about that. We know exactly what to do to upregulate BDNF. Things like sauna, whole food, coffee extract, amazing supplement that boosts neuroplasticity. Now, what does it do to mood and behavior? Well, we notice that people that have poor BDNF production often give things a lot of meaning because they have difficulty developing new synapses and neural pathways to deal with whatever just happened. They’re stuck in their old thinking, and it’s very difficult to accept or deal with what’s new, whether it’s good or bad. And so that thing has a lot of weight, shell shock, ruminating, can’t stop talking, that voice in my head.

[00:18:51] Now, put that and combine that with a serotonin dysregulation. Combine that with someone whose adrenaline response, which we didn’t even talk about, is dysregulated, where the imprint trauma more than other people, you start to see clinical language around it versus just mood language around it. So, what we find is the people that often get stuck in. I do this, put the blinders on. I’m the scientist. I do a really, really, really good job with this. But ask me to do the marketing and do the legal, I will stumble and fumble. But the day I figure that out, I’m also going to do a better job than you. Bad BDNF versus Jack or Jill of all trades. My BDNF is optimal. I will learn it all. I will do it all. And it’s very easy for me to transition. I don’t need to go through it experientially. Give me theory and I get it. So, what it does in terms of outcome, drastic, drastic difference between this one gene being turned one way or the other. The other thing it really dramatically affects is your circadian rhythm and your clock. We find so many people that are lying on their pillow at night that can’t fall asleep, or different days their relationship to latency, as it’s called, like falling asleep on time, is completely random. It’s when your BDNF is off. 

[00:19:58] And the stimulus that happens during the day does different things to your internal clock. You had a great structured day, you’re going to fall asleep on time, you got sunlight too late in the day, or you took in some stress too late in the day, you’re not going to fall asleep on time. You didn’t resolve an issue because BDNF, this suboptimality leads to the shell shock. Can’t stop talking, didn’t resolve an issue. I can’t sleep because my inner voice is talking to me. So, we can get really precise on when you use words again, like anxiety, depression, all these words that’s too general. We need to start there for sure. Here’s how I feel. Why do you feel that? Any one of these five neurochemicals we talked about can lead to that feeling for a completely different reason? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:20:37] And I think this is a really important conversation. And largely because women in perimenopause and menopause struggle so much with sleep. I mean, this is, if you didn’t have a problem in your 20s and early to mid-30s, you very likely will start to have some changes in your sleep quality. And so, let’s talk about the sleep-wake cycle and our circadian clocks, because for many women perhaps listening, this might be the first time they’re hearing about this. They may say, “Okay, I understand BDNF is helpful,” but understanding that all of these are layering on top of one another, it’s not as if it’s just one thing. It is multilayered reasons why your sleep may be impacted. 

Kashif Khan: [00:21:15] So, one unique thing I see specifically in women and around the perimenopause and menopause time, almost every time when someone is struggling, where it’s one thing after another. I went from migraines to gut issues to arthritis in my finger. They have a serotonin dysregulation, and the serotonin dysregulation is not causing the problem. What it’s causing is their brain to operate at a much higher level of sensitivity and almost manifest the things that are happening to them. It’s consistent. We’ve seen it over and over and over and over again. And this is why I’m saying that we have to start with mood, because if you don’t understand how you perceive, it’s very hard to fix the very real problem that exists but why the next problem? And why the next problem? And why the reoccurrence even though you fixed it.

[00:21:58] When you’re seeing the world at that level of detail. That little pain. “Oh, no, it’s happening again. That person said something. Oh, no, they’re reminding me.” And everything brings it back. Your body will give you what your brain is telling it. If your brain is saying, “I’m still sick,” you’re not in a heal state, you’re in a fight or flight state, and you’re probably still going to be sick. And when your serotonin is dysregulated, connected with your gut also being disrupted, which is so common today, and you’re making your serotonin in your gut, or I should say not making your serotonin in your gut, that causes another layer of problems, we kind of see this issue. 

[00:22:30] But going back to what you said about sleep, the reason I brought up serotonin is because that’s a bigger sleep disruptor we find than even the circadian rhythm and clock. And again, we didn’t know this until we went and started working with those 7000 people. And out of all those people we worked with, the number one thing people would say as an outcome is my sleep is better. And in the beginning of our research, we never intended to fix it. We just thought it was a coincidence. But when we heard it over and over and over again, we’re like, wait a second, what’s going on here? When we were healing neurochemicals, traumas, anxiety, gut, hormones, sleep would get better. So BDNF, we talked about helping you fall asleep. My body knows what time it is because I have good BDNF. 

[00:23:10] Most women have a very different problem they’re trying to solve. It’s I can’t stay asleep. I fell asleep fine. Those first 3 hours were great. Something happened at 03:00 AM and I’m up, and I maybe got up to use a washroom. And the quality in the second half is nowhere near the same. So, what’s going on there? The first half of your sleep is more. If I generalize, it’s more like detox repair, lymphatic drainage of the brain. The body dealing with whatever happened the day before. The second half is preparation. Make your hormones, make your neurochemicals, get ready for the next day. So, in this first half, you’re getting deep sleep. And if your circadian rhythm is working well, you’ll get that fine. You may have a little bit of latency problems in falling asleep, but generally, once you’re there, you’re there. 

[00:23:53] Melatonin is that hormone or neurochemical that our brain is trying to use to put you to sleep. Serotonin, is that neurochemical your brain is trying to use to wake up. And the triggers are different. We just as a context thing, our DNA is approximately 250,000 to 300,000 years old. We haven’t changed in that time. So, same exact wiring as a cave person from 300,000 years ago. Meaning that our body and DNA and brain are still waiting for those ancestral cues and think we’re in that same exact context. It doesn’t know that it’s 2024 with 144,000 new chemicals offered to humanity. It thinks that we’re walking in a cave and that’s what’s going on. So, a cave person used to see the amber glow of fire in pitch black every night. That was a signal for melatonin binding. Not production, but the actual binding to get you into that deep sleep state. 

[00:24:44] The cave person used to see sunlight pierce through their eyelids and created a bit of a peachy glow to bind serotonin. Now, we already said that we know that serotonin dysregulation leads to inability to prioritize incoming stimulus. Meaning in that second half, when your brain is waiting for the sunlight to pierce through your eyelid, it’s also responding to too hot, too cold. [unintelligible 00:25:07] foot. [unintelligible 00:25:07] pulled a blanket. Dog barking in through rooms down the hall. Like all of these things that were not meant to happen. The cave person’s context was six days a week I slept in the back of the cave with a fur on me, and there was a signal of safety to my neurology, and it was cold.

[00:25:22] And then one day a week, I had to sleep at the front of the cave to listen for the wolf that was going to step on a twig and break it. And that’s what the serotonin response is wiring you for, to notice that stimulus. So, long story short, the sleep cocooned, it’s not a pill you need to take. It’s literally giving you that same heavy weighted blanket, folding of the mattress, pitch black, zero light pollution, zero sound pollution, give yourself that back of the cave experience. And this serotonin dysregulation, which isn’t fixed with taking a melatonin pill or taking a magnesium pill, which are how do I fall asleep solutions. This is how do I stay asleep solution. The other big part of it is that’s the exact time when you’re making your serotonin. You make it in your sleep during that second half. 

[00:26:03] So, if your gut is disrupted and your gut isn’t healthy. That’s another key starting point, because you’re in this vicious loop of not making it, not sleeping, not making it, not sleeping. Have to fix your gut as well. So, I could go on and on and on just about sleep, but that’s another big one. We’re often solving the wrong problems. 

Cynthia Thurlow Yeah. And I would imagine, I know physiologically, as we get older, we get less deep sleep. And so, the bare minimum, I usually say, if people are wearing Oura Rings or WHOOP bands, is 90 minutes minimum. That’s really what you’re aiming for. Is there anything in our genes that can impact the degree of deep sleep we’re experiencing that you’ve been able to see clinically?

Kashif Khan: [00:26:40] So, definitely circadian rhythms with BDNF. And there’s a gene literally called clock, which regulates your internal clock. And we don’t see it often, but some people have disruption there. And now the habits of the day determine what happens in that first half. We’ve heard this before. As soon as you wake up, your sleep starts. What did you do when you wake up? Did you get sunlight? Did you get vitamin D to signal to the clock that it should start ticking? Did you pause a couple of times during the day just to breathe, like our ancestors did? They used to pray several times a day to signal to your clock that the day has continued. Did the activity of the evening feel different than the activity of the day? 

[00:27:15] Was there a very purposeful pause where you get into leisure and family and low stress and some stretching and some walking? If these cues aren’t happening, your clock, which perhaps is broken because of BDNF or the clock gene doesn’t know what to do. And up until 11:30 PM. It still thinks it’s noon. So, how are you going to fall asleep? So that’s the big one, is, first of all, knowing what’s happening with BDNF and clock and then having that daily structure so your body doesn’t need to rely on the clock itself. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:27:40] And how about the impact of stress? I feel like we’ve had this incredible social experiment over the past four years with the pandemic, post pandemic. But I think about so many patients will tell me whether it’s a loved one is sick, someone’s lost a job, they move, they’re traveling. How the impact of cortisol impacts the clearance of some of these markers that you have been able to witness, because, as you mentioned, sleep is a big topic, but it’s certainly a huge pain point for my community.

Kashif Khan: [00:28:11] Yeah, so hugely. And that word stress, the way we experience it or what triggers it, is so different for all of us. So, take me, for example. Because of my dopamine pathway being [unintelligible 00:28:22], my serotonin dysregulation, I’m going to take on more of a load. I need more to get that sense of reward. And so, I will work until I burn out. I don’t do that now because now I know how to structure my day so that I stay healthy. That’s what I used to do and it’s one of the reasons I was so sick. So, for me, stress isn’t the feeling of stress. It isn’t. I don’t like stress, get stress away from me. It’s that I stress my body too much. 

[00:28:45] I put it through hell because I can cope with it, versus somebody who can’t handle the stress, who’s feeling it, who’s then having that elevated cortisol response, who’s then constantly feeling triggered, serotonin dysregulation with a high dopamine expression. That’s the person that’s going to have constant acute anxiety response, big crashes versus me, chronic, everyday that’s just my norm, anxiety. The fear of missing out when dopamine levels are high. You’re so used to being content when somebody takes the good away from you, you’re not used to that feeling and the stress that that causes. Another big one, especially when somebody’s health journey, a journey of improvement. Your noradrenaline response really determines how you recall information and when you’re dysregulated there, you’re much more like to imprinting the emotion of any given scenario that you’ve been in. And more particularly the negative. Very commonly the negative, which means I got the email from the doctor, PTSD, I don’t even want to open it. 

[00:29:45] Calendar says today is when you start taking your pills. I ignore it, procrastinate. I have to go to that location and go find that thing that triggered me and go investigate it. I just can’t do it. So that reminder as if the pain point is continuing, that’s literally how this is experienced. The world has experienced, like, there was no break between the thing that caused the trauma and the next instance that looks similar to the trauma. This snowballs over time and there’s no healing in that context. There’s avoidance and massive, massive stress because you keep blaming the problem, you keep saying, this thing hurts, this thing bothers me. Those people are bad. That doctor has no empathy. 

[00:30:24] Because connecting pain to every word they say, knowing this, just knowing it, and then people seeing the world through this new lens, it’s like sigh of relief. Now I get it. They’re not actually doing this to me. It’s actually an EQ emotional intelligence filter that I have. I can bond, I connect, I can see the empathy, but the world doesn’t see the things that way. And so, they’re not speaking at my level. So just that self-actualization solves a big part of the problem. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:30:50] Yeah, it’s actually fascinating. And when I was reading your book, I obviously took a lot of notes because I going all over the place, like what direction could we take the conversation? Another super big pain point for my community is weight loss resistance– In your research, what are some of the genes that are helpful for satiety or controlling hunger cues? It may be contributing, because I think for a lot of individuals, if they’re still getting menstrual cycle, depending on where they are in their cycle, can impact things, obviously, types of exercise. But I think the more we understand about infradian rhythms in women, the more we can appreciate and understand the role of lifestyle.

Kashif Khan: [00:31:27] Yeah. When we were researching weight loss in everything we researched, we researched people that were stuck. I’m doing everything right. Why isn’t this getting better? And those were the people that came to us where we’re partnered with various clinics, sending us their problems that they couldn’t solve, let’s say. And so, weight loss was a big one. And here’s the areas where people got stuck. Everything around mood and behavior. Serotonin dysregulation leads to coping mechanism. Your body does not want to be in a cortisol stress response constantly. It knows that that’s bad, and so it will give you happy time. Go eat the soul food, go eat the cheesecake, feel good. So, coping mechanisms are a real big reason why people are stuck.

[00:32:04] You’ll often see this amongst high-performing professional women, lawyer, accountant, financial analyst that has a lot of pressure. The reason they’re so good at that job is because of their propensity towards detail. They see everything, but that’s also what leads them to push themselves into stress and lead to coping mechanism. The other big one, where particularly women get stuck is the hormone cascade. 

[00:32:24] So, everything around I’m eating right, exercising right, calories and burn are good. Why am I stuck? Well, if you’re more estrogen dominant, if your hormones are pointing to producing or not clearing and there’s various entry and exit points to this hormone cascade, then your body is going to signal the storage of fat. It’s going to signal a more curvaceous form. And you maybe, perhaps, are either aiming for the wrong goal. What does the best version of myself look like? It’s not necessarily a picture I just saw on Instagram, but there is a better version I can aim for if I choose or that’s what I want. Exercise and diet may not get me there. I may need to take supplements to slow my aromatization down. The conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Like I’m solving the wrong problem. And we see this often. 

[00:33:10] Part of our research was we spent a long time working with the US female Olympic athletes because they tended to have a lot more stuck points than the male athletes because of the menstrual cycle and the circadian rhythm of that cycle, causing four unique women in a period of a month. And so, the same solution on week one didn’t work on week three. And this was one of the big ones, was, I train the same, I eat the same, I do everything the same, I even work harder. Why don’t I have that level of fitness that usually came down to hormones? And what they didn’t realize is that hormone profile they had was their gift. So, estrogen is actually what gives you mass and strength. 

[00:33:46] We have a misconception around testosterone giving you that, Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson body, that’s estrogen that gives you the mass. Yes, testosterone will give you lean muscle and some vitality, but the mass comes from estrogen, the big dead-lifter for example. So, often we had to tweak the hormone cascade itself with basic supplements. We know what things slow-down in robotization or speed it up, if that’s what’s needed, and it’s safe and clean and healthy. So that’s another big area where people get stuck. I would say another area where you have an issue is in the detox pathway.

[00:34:19] So, it’s very clear that a lot of us, and this is another area where, I’d say a lot of people in our research versus the general population, this tested 7000 people that were [unintelligible 00:34:29] population much more likely to have broken detox pathways compared to the average population, because you can’t really have disease without inflammation for the most part. And what causes inflammation? We stop there medically. You can’t have disease without inflammation. But we don’t ask why is there inflammation? So, why is there inflammation? What did you breathe, what did you eat, and how did your body cope with it? What did you put on your skin? What did you make internally? Hormones, oxidants. So, your glutathione pathway, for example, your ability to deal with airborne toxicants. 

[00:35:00] So, pesticides, chemicals, the cleaning chemicals on your desk, you’re -50% in your ability to prevent those from entering your bloodstream. Then there’s this phase two, second line of defense. You’re also -50% there. So, it’s getting in and you’re not very efficient at removing it. Now go work in a factory. Go work in a factory and try and understand why you can’t lose weight, because your body trying to protect you, is holding on to fat as a place to deposit all of these toxins that you’re overloading yourself with. Body is intelligent. It knows what to do. And this is one of the major contributors to breast cancer. Here’s a perfect example of genetics versus functional genomics. If we paint a picture of everything we’ve been talking about today, this would be it. 

[00:35:40] Genetics is you have the BRCA gene. Go cut your breasts off. Go cut your fallopian tubes out, your ovaries out. That’s BRCA. And you’re seeing articles all over the news saying cancer rates are better because we’re cutting women’s fallopian tubes out because of this BRCA gene. So, the truth is that BRCA doesn’t cause cancer. And most doctors have no clue that’s the truth. They have a guide like BRCA equals cut it out. BRCA is a tumor suppressor. So, God forbid you have some form of cancer. BRCA is supposed to fix it. All cancers. It also fixes DNA damage and it fixes cells and prevents them from unraveling and oxidizing. So, it’s a repair tool. If you have the bad version of the repair tool, you’re not going to fight cancer well and you may not recover. We still don’t know why it was called, right.

[00:36:22] And if you cut your breasts off and your fallopian tubes off, but you didn’t deal with a cause, are you really not getting cancer or is it just not going to happen here first, that takes it where it’s easy to happen? That’s genetics. You have an 80% chance of breast cancer. Functional genomics is maybe as a woman, you are more estrogen dominant, like we said, and so you make a little too much, and then maybe as a woman, that metabolite, because when you have your monthly cycle, it’s not the estrogen you’re clearing. You convert it into one of three options, or sometimes all three, 2, 4, or 16-hydroxyestrogen. Two is good, nice, healthy, clean stuff until you get into menopause, when it also becomes inflammatory. 

[00:37:00] 4 and 16 are toxic and inflammatory, and a lot of women make 4 at a little bit too much of a rate, the dials turn too heavy. Estrogen dominant, making the toxic stuff. The same detox pathways we talked about, also get rid of it. You’re COMT, the neurochemical clearance gene, the glutathione genes, the antioxidant, they all work together to clear all these things going on. So, you may have this trifecta of making too much the wrong version and I don’t clear it. Then add on top of that, 10 years on the birth control pill, hormone disruption, the chemicals on your Teflon-coated frying pan, your cosmetics, not knowing how much you’re mimicking estrogens with all these various things entering your body, fueling that initial funnel of more toxic byproduct. 

[00:37:41] Once you get into menopause, and this is why majority of breast cancer happens at that age. And this just goes back to the thing you were asking about weight loss and what’s one of the key reasons. Your body no longer has the menstrual cycle to get rid of this toxin you’re making, but you’re still making it. And so, your body says, “I’m going to protect you. I don’t want the organs and the vasculature getting damaged. I’m going to save you here. So, I’m going to go store this stuff in fat.” And women have fat in their breasts. And in their breasts, you also have these milk glands and ducts that as a cellular structure were not designed to deal with that level of toxic insult. And so, they will get damaged faster and they will get DNA damage, dysregulated, cancerous faster. 

[00:38:20] After all that, if you had the bad BRCA gene, you’re not going to do well. But none of this needed to happen. This was all cause, cause, cause, cause, cause. And so, this is one thing your body is constantly doing. It’s storing toxins and fat. It’s storing heavy metals in bone. And this is why so many women, as they get into menopause, they start to lose bone density, and all of a sudden, they have heavy metal poisoning. And like, I didn’t do anything, what did I do? No, it’s decades of buildup and storage in your bones that are now going to release back into the bloodstream. So, the considerations of, if you understand biology in today’s reality and what we’re coping with today, there’s different things we need to deal with that we didn’t know we need to deal with. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:38:55] Yeah. And it’s really interesting. So, the estrogen metabolism pathway, looking at 2-OH, 4-OH, 16-OH. 4OH, is the one that has the ability to bind to and damage DNA, so obviously of concern. What are some of the things, if women are listening, obviously, I would recommend they do the testing. But in the book, you do a nice job of talking around things, whether it’s a supplement, things to avoid. When it comes to weight loss resistance what are some of the bigger concepts? If people are listening, like, I’ve done all the things we don’t know, what else is going on, why am I stuck? Which is like, it’s usually, why is the scale stuck? Is usually the question I get, but what are some of the things that they can do proactively to help support not just estrogen metabolism, but also making sure that they’re supporting the hormone cascade before we even think about if HRT is appropriate for this individual, before we even get to that point. 

Kashif Khan: [00:39:49] So, even just looking at your body type will give you a clear indication of dominance. And this is a crude example. Are you Kim Kardashian, are you Kendall Jenner? They’re sisters. They had a different father. And so hormonally, they’re very different. One is highly androgenized, Kendall and one is highly estrogenized. So, knowing who you are and what your unique risks are, the risks around estrogen dominance and androgen dominance are very different. So, now balancing those things out to become something more in the middle, which is a healthier place to be for long-term health, having a clean, smooth menopause, having less of a rocky menstrual cycle. All of those things, the things that slow down or speed up aromatization are somewhat known, DIM is the most commonly known, I would say curcumin. And then you have the opposite, things like fenugreek, that speed things up.

[00:40:36] So, first of all, what problem are you trying to solve? Let’s solve the right problem. And then we already know what ingredients augment gene expression. We’re literally slowing or speeding the gene up with these foods to get you to that better state. Then it’s okay. Well, my balance is okay, but I’m making too much of this toxin. How do I get rid of it? So, there’s things like sulforaphane that are known microgreens, broccoli. Eat some broccoli microgreens, get rid of that toxin. There are supplements like SAM-e and TMG that speed up COMT. That same neurochemical clearance also gets rid of the 4-OH specifically. So, if you’re taking the SAM-e or TMG, you’re able to clear that stuff better.

[00:41:15] So, who actually needs it? The person that’s making too much 4-OH. Then you can support your innate glutathione pathway. But you have to be personalized, meaning that, like yourself, the GSTT 1 gene, you’re missing a copy. Mom or dad didn’t give it to you. If you were to go take glutathione, you wouldn’t feel very well, even though you would think, okay, glutathione pathway broken, add some glutathione. If you’re missing the genetic instruction, your body doesn’t know what to do with this glutathione and it starts binding onto minerals and nutrients and other things that you actually need, and you feel horrible. So, precursors, NAC, glycine, selenium, milk thistle. That’s what your body needs. But someone who’s doing really well with GSTT1, go ahead, jump straight on glutathione. Go get an IV. You’ll do really, really well with that thing. 

[00:41:56] So, knowing what part of the cascade is broken, where to intervene. And then focusing heavily there and then knowing what augments gene expression. And these things are known. They’re already in our reports. They’re easy to understand. And then going back to the other thing you said about other places where people get stuck with weight loss, satiety is a big one in terms of this gray area. People, they don’t know what’s happening. There’s two genes, one called FTO, which is a signal between the gut and the brain. Does the brain know my stomach is full? How long does that signal take? And for some people, it’s a little slow. And you know who you are. You’re likely to go for seconds or thirds and at the pot scraping at the bottom of whatever’s left over, you can keep going because it takes longer. So, that’s the type of person who want the prescription, your stomach is 2 L, you need to eat until you’re 80% full. 

[00:42:45] This is a Japanese concept, hara hachi bu, like, eat until you’re 80% full and you’re going to feel amazing. So, start with 400 mL of water and fiber, prefill. Do that 20 minutes before you eat. Get your gut ready for that 1.6 L. And then there’s an entirely different problem. Some people don’t feel satiety in the palate. Gut, no problem, I know when I’m full, but I can’t help but graze at the pantry. I still need my Doritos, I still need my cookie, even though I know I’m full. Because they have a coping and survival mechanism which drives them to seek variety. Now, imagine again, ancestrally, it was very difficult to get proper nutrition, and so the person that survived had this trait. They would seek out more. They wanted the greens and the nuts and the soupy and the crunchy and all the different flavor profiles before they were satisfied.

[00:43:29] If you still have that wiring, which so many of us do, you’re still seeking the wow factor of the palate even though you’re full. And so, you need to hack that. You need to give yourself the soupy, crunchy, salty, a nut, a piece of cheese, a piece of fruit, dark chocolate. The variety that your palate is seeking to signal satiety to your brain. These two places people really get stuck because it’s truly perceived as real. You really think you need it. The last place I would say is we can be really precise on the metabolic pathway and the genes that drive fat metabolism, starch metabolism, vegan proteins, vegan foods, your insulin response. 

[00:44:07] And so all of a sudden, the person that when they go eat starch, they just can’t stop because their insulin response is broken. The person who, when they eat fat, they struggle. So, we can get really precise on– If I look at your metabolic pathway, what does it look like you were designed for? Maybe you were meant to be a carnivore, maybe you weren’t. Maybe low carb doesn’t really matter to you. And in fact, again, going back to these female athletes, there’s some of them where we had to tell them, please bring carbs back. This is why you feel so bad. But some of them, we had to say, cut it out or you’re going to get diabetes, guaranteed. So, we can be very specific around that. And that in itself, massive trial and error, one size fits all, removal from this weight loss journey, being precise about what your body needs and all of a sudden outcome is amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:44:50] Yeah, it’s really interesting how very bio-individual it is. And certainly, through this process, I know that I need extra detoxification support. I love that you brought up glutathione, because I never get glutathione in any IVs. I’ve always been advised to avoid that, I will probably be on things like milk thistle and NAC for the rest of my life at the point that I’m going, and probably some calcium D-glucarate as well. But to tie things up for individuals that are listening when we’re talking about all of these bio-genomics and looking at different variables and how very bio-individual this is, let’s wrap it up. Just touching on a little bit more around bone health, because for so many people, we have this nonclinical diagnosis of osteopenia.

Kashif Khan: [00:45:36] Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:45:36] It’s when they’re comparing a 50-year old’s bone to a 25-year old’s bone and we don’t expect them to be equivalent. But to your point about oral contraceptives, most women in my generation were on oral contraceptives for 10, 15 years. During our peak bone and muscle mass building years, we’re not at a healthy estrogen level because our estrogen levels were suppressed. When we’re talking about the bone piece and understanding that as we’re getting older and we have this differing levels of estrogen it can impact the rate at which we break down bone. So, the catabolism of bone, which is a normal byproduct of this interrelationship between estrogen and progesterone and how that is a normal function if we’re not actively working against it. What else about bone health do you think is important to share with listeners so that they can be their own best advocates? 

Kashif Khan: [00:46:23] So, the thing that stands out is the vitamin D cascade. And people don’t often think of it as a cascade, but it is. It’s multistep and it’s the only micronutrient that is multistep because it is the most important. It is potentially toxic if you have too much and so your body is seeking the right amount. And it’s the only micronutrient where there’s a gene to metabolize it. So, D2 from the sun gets converted into the active D3, (CYP) 2R1 does that job of making your D3 for you. Cholesterol also, you can use it to make D3. Then there’s a second step. I’ve made my D3. My doctor tested my blood and told me how much vitamin D I have. That’s one-third of the story. 

[00:47:04] The second-third is there’s a gene that comes along, VDBP and transports it to the cell where I actually use it. Even then, we’re not done. Step three, there’s a binding gene VDR, that comes along and that then connects it and gets it intercellular, where you actually need it. And so often we find when people with poor bone health combined with their environment, the jurisdiction they live in, that maybe doesn’t have enough sun, don’t do any one of these three jobs well. And if you look at the human genome and the 22,000, approximately genes that make up your genetic structure, 2000 of them require adequate vitamin D. So, 10% of every job that’s happening in your body, every piece of biochemistry, requires the right amount of vitamin D in order to actually happen for those genes to express and do their job. 

[00:47:48] If you don’t have enough, which is the case for a lot of us, then those jobs aren’t happening, which is why you have the winter blues with anxiety and depression, when there isn’t enough sunlight, which is why you have so much poor bone health. And you already had poor bone health, but when you combine that to what’s happening to your hormones in menopause, it falls off a cliff. It just wasn’t noticed until then.

[00:48:07] So, you have to maintain adequate vitamin D, not just vitamin D. What does that mean? Some people need a higher dose, step one of the conversion isn’t happening. Some people need multiple doses because if you’re not transporting or binding efficiently, I can tell you, because we’re in Toronto, we deal with a lot of NHL hockey players, just Mecca for hockey training. And how many times have their problems been resolved with multiple doses of vitamin D a day? Because they’re indoors training all winter, they don’t see the sun. Some of them have bad vitamin D genetics and so they just needed two or three doses and everything changes. There was a star player here in Toronto, actually for the Toronto Maple Leafs, who in his rookie season was supposed to be the most incredible, kept getting fractures. 

[00:48:48] And when you look at his ethnicity, 50% Mexican, family lived in Arizona. All of a sudden indoors in Toronto all the time, he kept getting these fractures. And his vitamin D cascade was designed in the Mexican environment to reduce the utilization of the overexposure to vitamin D. His ancestors were in the sun all the time, so he had bad metabolism, bad transport, bad binding, and now no input and he kept getting fractures. 

[00:49:16] We have a patient we were dealing with that moved Toronto from Trinidad who got scoliosis. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:49:20] Wow. 

Kashif Khan: [00:49:22] Yeah. Because the worst possible vitamin D cascade, all three pieces, indoors, no sunlight, complete shift in environment. And this was in his teens and he got scoliosis. The solution was vitamin D, but three doses a day. He needed three doses, because give it to him in the morning, his body can’t bind and transport it fast enough and it just gets stored in fat. So, just precision around what version? When it comes to B12s, when it comes to B9s and folic acid versus folinic versus folate, what does my body actually need? Does it need it sublingual, under the tongue? Does it need it in the gut? How many times a day? All of these questions, your genome already has the answer. And we can be more precise and just feel good. But that’s the big one that stands out when it comes to really turning the dial on bone health. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:07] Well, it’s really fascinating to me because I was taught that if you live north of Atlanta, you’re probably not going to get enough sun exposure year round because a lot of people will say, “Oh, I don’t need any vitamin D supplementation because I’m getting sun exposure.” And to your point, you don’t know if your body can actually convert the sunlight on your skin to create that first step in this pathway. So, utilizing the genomics along with some serum testing, I would imagine is quite effective.

Kashif Khan: [00:50:36] For sure. Yeah, in order to work on our research, we even did some intracellular testing, which is a rare thing. But how much vitamin D is actually in the cell and the answer was pretty clear when we compared that to the cascade. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:50] That’s absolutely fascinating. Well, Kashif, please let listeners know how to connect with you, how to get your book. If they want to work with you, how to get access to the testing, because I would imagine a lot of listeners are going to want to go down that rabbit hole. I found it really fascinating. It was very validating of a lot of things that I already knew, but also provided some additional insights. 

Kashif Khan: [00:51:09] Sure. So, I would say, come to my personal website. I mean, I want to honor everybody being here together with us today. I want to make sure that you’re not just going to our main website and paying retail. So, kashkhanofficial, which is the same as my Instagram handle. If you want to learn more, forward slash, let’s say Thurlow. So, kashkhanofficial.com/thurlow. And what I want to do is everything we talked about here. There’s a lot of clinical stuff we talked about here. Not all of that is in the report. I’m going to be very transparent about that and why do I say that, FDA and Health Canada won’t let us say certain things? We know a lot more than what’s in there.

[00:51:46] Now, that being said, you go get the test, you’re going to learn incredible things that will change your life. You don’t need anyone’s help. It’s very easy to use. There is more to it. And very specifically for this audience when we’re talking about perimenopause and menopause, I think there’s more to be said than what’s in the report. And so, literally, as were talking, I was thinking about this where, go get the report from that link. And I want to make sure that we have some kind of master class or some education session around perimenopause and menopause with everybody’s reports in their hand. So, use that link so I know who you are. Because this is not a product or service that exists. I want to do it for this community. So, kashkhanofficial.com/thurlow I’ll make sure there’s a discount there. And anyone that uses that link, we will host some kind of event or masterclass around it around menopause so that you get the value you’re looking for out of it. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:52:33] No, thank you for that. And for listeners to know that this is an invaluable bit of information that both myself and even my functional medicine doc learned a lot and have been applying some of the principles from the test for sure. Well, we’ll definitely have to have you back again for sure. This has been so interesting and we just touched on just a little bit of information in your book, The DNA Way, which I highly recommend. If you are a science nerd like I am, I love learning. I love applying the application. Definitely something that you want to check out for your library. 

Kashif Khan: [00:53:05] Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:53:09] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review, subscribe and tell a friend.