Ep. 355 Embracing Growth: The Impact of Gratitude and Connection with Doug Bopst

I am thrilled to have the award-winning personal trainer, Doug Bopst, joining me today. 

Doug is also an author and host of the Adversity Advantage Podcast. He is a former convicted felon and drug addict who spent time in jail and is now on a mission to inspire others to conquer adversity and realize their fullest potential.

Today, Doug and I engage in a thought-provoking conversation on gratitude, how exercise enables individuals to confront their fears and connect with themselves, the distinction between healthy and unhealthy habits, and the restrictions associated with seeking validation externally. We also discuss the transformative power of resilience, faith, and learning to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. 

Doug’s remarkable journey from adversity to triumph serves as a beacon of inspiration for countless individuals seeking transformation, and I am confident that our conversation will resonate deeply with listeners. Stay tuned for Doug’s profound insights on personal development.

“You have to develop that muscle of grit and fortitude. Just showing up, even when you’re feeling a little hurt, tired, or stressed, teaches you that when things get hard, you don’t curl up in a ball. You can fight back and keep pushing through.”

– Doug Bopst

IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN

• How gratitude reshaped Doug’s life
• How people use drugs as a coping mechanism to numb emotional pain
• Doug explains how he realized he had power and was able to control his life despite feeling powerless 
• How exercise can catalyze self-discovery and growth
• Why anxiety and stress are normal responses for those raised in troubled environments
• Why do some individuals constantly seek external validation instead of seeking self-worth internally?
• How self-awareness can help to conquer the need for external validation
• The benefits of coaching and therapy for overcoming unhealthy relationships with food
• Why many women avoid pushing themselves to the limit during workouts
• How faith helped Doug to transform his pain and become a better person

Connect with Cynthia Thurlow

• Follow on Twitter
• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• Check out Cynthia’s website
• Submit your questions to support@cynthiathurlow.com

Connect with Doug Bopst

• On his website
• Instagram
• The Adversity Advantage Podcast 

Transcript

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness podcast. I’m your host, Nurse Practitioner, Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.  

[00:00:29] Today, I had the honor of connecting with Doug Bopst. He is an award-winning personal trainer, author and host of The Adversity Advantage podcast. And he’s on a crusade to inspire others to overcome adversity and become the best version of themselves. He is also a former convicted felon and drug addict who spent time in jail for possession with intent to sell. 

[00:00:48] Today, we discussed the role of gratitude, connection, how exercise can allow you to face your fears, connect to yourself, the role of healthy versus unhealthy habits and how external validation can be a cage, the impact of grit and fortitude, faith and getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. I know you will enjoy this conversation as much as I did recording it.

[00:01:16] Doug, so good to connect with you. Like I said earlier, I feel like I have known you because we had so many shared coincidences as we started having conversations in our DMs and texting back and forth. There are far too many coincidences. We must have been meant to be friends and be connected. 

Doug Bopst: [00:01:33] It’s great to be here, Cynthia. And you’re right. I was telling you, I haven’t met anybody that had as many mutual connections as you and I did right off the bat. So, I’m really looking forward to this conversation and look forward to chatting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:01:45] Yeah. I would love to really start our discussion today talking about gratitude. Obviously, I know this is something that has been important to your journey, something that’s really important to my journey. But how has gratitude shaped your life at this stage of your existence? 

Doug Bopst: [00:02:01] Listen, I’m grateful to be alive. Like, when I was younger, I didn’t think I was going to live to see my 25th birthday. And if it wasn’t for my cellmate, Eric, really getting me involved in fitness with fitness when I was incarcerated on felony drug charges, I probably would have ended up dead. To be honest, because before I went to jail, I had a horrific addiction to Oxycodone. I was selling drugs, I was doing other drugs, and I was hopeless. I was in the depths of despair. I had no goals, no aspirations, no self-esteem at all. 

[00:02:29] And there were nights where I would crush up, like a line of Oxycodone and a line of coke, and I would be like, “I wonder if I snorted this and I didn’t wake up, like, if anybody would remember me or if people would come to my funeral or if people would actually care.” And so, that just paints an idea of how my life was before I went to jail. And so, I didn’t think I was going to make it that long. And also, because I went to many funerals when I was a kid of people that I hung out with. Not that just people I would see on Facebook or people that I maybe went to school with. Like, people that were in my friend group, I was going to funerals as a kid. So, it wasn’t that far-fetched that I would end on a very similar path. 

[00:03:05] I say that because I’m just so thankful to be where I am today and doing what I’m doing. And I try to just encapsulate that in the way that I conduct myself, whether it’s through my podcast, whether it’s through conversations like I’m having here, whether it’s just through my relationships or with my family now, just because I am so grateful that I was given a chance to turn my life around and also grateful that I had this guy come into my life when I didn’t even believe in myself that he believed in me enough to give me this chance to find out how much my life was actually worth living. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:03:37] That’s really so profoundly inspiring. And certainly, when I was reading your book and doing research for this conversation, this is probably not something we have explored on the podcast before. And so, from my perspective, having trained in Baltimore– At that time in the 1990s, it was the height of the heroin crisis, the HIV and AIDS crisis, teen pregnancy, syphilis. Like, Baltimore was number one for everything. And yet, what’s interesting is Baltimore still plays a really significant role in, not just drug fatalities but overdoses from predominantly fentanyl now. Fentanyl appears to be really on the rise. But I think there’s really no coincidence that I’m hearing your story and I’m realizing that there must have been something intrinsically unique to you that you took what could have been the start of a long trajectory, either continuing with drug addiction and or being in jail. But meeting this individual, Eric in jail, was the precipitant and spark for taking the trajectory of your life in a completely different direction. 

[00:04:41] And so, I think we have to acknowledge that there are no coincidences that I really fervently believe that this is the path you were meant to take to have you catapulted to a whole other level of influence in a really positive way. And so, when you talk about this self-destructiveness of drug use and not dealing with uncomfortable feelings, was that common for your friend circle? Because you do talk quite a bit on social media and in podcasts about how influential your friend circle is, how much impact they can make on the choices that yourself are embracing. And do you think that that played a role given your upbringing? I’m also a child of divorce. So, I want to be really clear. I know what that’s like. But do you feel like your friend circle at that point in time, given what you’re sharing, had a large impact on where you were in time and space and middle high school and early adulthood? 

Doug Bopst: [00:05:34] In different ways, yes. I say that, just because when you grow up in a broken home and my parents got divorced, there wasn’t a lot of communication between the two of them. So, I saw that and I witnessed that as a kid again, no shame to either one of my parents. That’s just the reality of the situation. I think just based on what I’ve learned, just through a lot of wisdom and just through talking to a lot of people, when you have a void like that, you will find that in other places. So, I think I clung on to my peers and friend groups and did whatever I could to fit in, because I needed connection in whatever way I possibly could. Even if those friends were making poor decisions, even if they were making fun of me, even if I was being laughed at all the time by them, whatever the case was. 

[00:06:13] I think for me, it started out just trying to fit in with my friends and just doing drugs and getting high, because I thought that’s what the cool thing was. And then eventually, and I think everybody or a lot of people who experience addiction deal with this, it’s like, you start out and it’s really fun. It’s a great fix for your problems. It’s a great thing. And then eventually, you get to a point where now it’s not fun anymore. You’re doing the thing to escape the pain and the misery that you’ve created in your life by these addictive and destructive behaviors. 

[00:06:42] And as far as my friends, I don’t know if they were inherently mad at themselves or felt poorly about themselves, and that’s why they were doing drugs. I think they were doing it, because at least from what I understood, because it was like the party thing, it was a cool thing to do. I was battling, in many ways, very silently. My friends knew what my family situation was like. They knew that I was upset that I didn’t have any luck with girls. They knew that I was upset I wasn’t good at sports. I think that was pretty clear. But the self-hatred that existed within side of me, the feeling that there was something inherently wrong with me or I thought there was something inherently wrong with me, the feeling that I was a complete failure, was a very silent battle. I think that the more I did the drugs, the more I realized that I needed to just numb out, and I needed not to think about anything because life was just too hard if I didn’t have those drugs. 

[00:07:32] And I think also on top of that was that I think our environment creates a false sense of normalcy. I talk about this a lot. In that, one of the things that is probably drawn you and I to each other is that we have a lot of the same common interests. We’re both podcasters, we’re both in the health and wellness space, we have a lot of mutual friends, we’re both on this mission to help people. That’s common ground. And so, it’s normal for us to spend time like this together and to communicate, and that feels like we want to be around other people that are doing this. 

[00:07:57] Well, when you’re in the thick of addiction, you create this whole new sense of normalcy. In the example that I use, let’s just say that I’m married to somebody. I’m not married, but let’s just say I’m going to the bar every single day, and I’m drinking day in and day out. I come home, my wife is like, “You have a problem. Like, you’re drinking every single day and you’re not going to work, you’re not doing this. You have a problem.” And then I’m like, “Well, everybody else is doing it. What do you mean? “ 

[00:08:20] And so, I say that because you create this false sense of normalcy, and that all of my friends around me were doing the exact same thing. You end up graduating friend groups too, because it’s very similar in our space, how people aren’t growing around you, you slowly evolve and trying to find new people that are growing. In that, the people that I was just smoking weed with, once I started to sell drugs or once I started to do coke or other hard drugs, I didn’t have anything in common with them anymore. So, I had to make new friends. I had to keep graduating friend groups, because I needed to feel like the situation around me was normal, because what that would do was that normalize my behavior. There was no self-accountability. I could sit there and I can blame people for my problems. I could feel like it was a normal situation. 

[00:09:01] And so, I guess to bring this full circle, yes, my friend group did have this tremendous impact on my behavior. But I think I got a rude awakening when I was in jail, when Eric, my cellmate, pointed out the fact that I was blaming everybody else for my problems but myself. I wasn’t taking any accountability. I wasn’t taking any responsibility. I wasn’t looking at myself in the mirror and realizing that regardless of my situation, regardless of how people were treating me, regardless of what my friends were doing, I still had autonomy in the way I behaved. And it wasn’t until I realized that, not only realized that, but actually started to swing the pendulum in the other way to start taking ownership for my choices that my life started to get better. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:09:43] Well, and I think for 80%, 90% of the population, I, sometimes, will say that there’s this degree of self-evolution. Self-reflection, self-evolution. And the majority of people, it’s very hard to look at yourself introspectively and say, “I’m doing this really well, and this requires some work.” And I have to really applaud you to have gone from all that degree of adversity and then doing the internal work, because really, it sounds like when you met this individual in jail, it spurned you to challenge your limiting beliefs, irrespective of what they were, and to have you realize that you deserved to be happy, healthy, be in a healthy mindset. And I feel like in many ways, when we’re ready for the message, oftentimes the teacher appears. 

Doug Bopst: [00:10:30] I think that is true. I think, for me, what I will say is, initially, I wasn’t ready. When I first got to jail, Eric approached me about exercising and I told him like, “Good luck, man. Like, I could have been a model for Pillsbury at the time.” I had no interest in exercising with him. It wasn’t until having this conversation and him pointing out the fact that I was being a victim, that I was blaming everybody else for my problems. And that I did have power. I had control because for a while, I thought that I had no control and that I was powerless and that no matter what I did, I was going to be a complete failure. I didn’t realize that I still had some power and life wasn’t over, and I still had an opportunity to turn things around. 

[00:11:07] And then I also, at that point, when him and I were having this conversation, the drugs had started to get out of my system or they might have been even completely, almost out of my system at that point, and I realized, like, “Well, clearly, I didn’t have everything figured out at that point in my life.” I had 21 jobs by the time I was 21 years before I went to jail as a drug addict, selling drugs, damaged relationships with my family, no career, nothing. And I was like, “Well, maybe there’s an opportunity for me to actually make a different choice in my life.”

[00:11:32] I also wanted more for myself. I think a lot of people, when they’re struggling and they’re in the thick of it, like I was, they want more for themselves. But the reality is they just don’t know how to change, or they think that it’s so far away that there’s even no point in trying or they assume that something’s going to happen along the way that’s going to get them to sidetrack and fail or whatever, and they don’t even try. And I think that’s why it was very useful for me when I was in jail that Eric and I just started with the basics when it came to exercise. Like, I couldn’t do a push up from my knees when I first got to jail at all. And so, when I finally got convinced to give this exercise size thing a shot, I remember getting down to do the push up from my knees, couldn’t. 

[00:12:08] And I felt so mad at myself and I felt like a failure. But when I was able to do that push up from my knees, the amount of self-confidence that I got, it was life changing. I always tell people and it’s like, “I’ve done some amazing stuff in my fitness career.” And I don’t say this to brag. This is just a reality of the situation in that. I’ve done like 30 pull ups without stopping. I’ve done over 100 push-ups without stopping. I’ve held a plank for nearly 10 minutes. I’ve had 5% body– I’ve had all this stuff. But nothing compares to how good I felt after being able to do a single push-up. Nothing will ever touch that. Because the level of self-confidence that it gave me, because I was like at negative 10 or whatever, going from that to one, wherever that brought me, it was the catalyst for everything that I do now and for my entire transformation, because it felt like that I had just climbed Mount Everest. 

[00:12:54] Then I was able to do two push-ups for my knees, three. And now I’m doing a set of 10 for my knees, which was seemed impossible. I would have told you I would have had a better chance of winning the lottery and the mega millions versus me being able to do a set of 10 push-ups either for my feet or from my knees by the time my jail sentence was over. It just completely shaped who I am as a person, completely transformed the way that I view habits, fitness, self-discipline. I have no one to thank. I have my cellmate to thank for all of that. And yeah, I played a role in it, for sure. But if it wasn’t for him pushing me, holding me accountable, believing in me when I couldn’t, I wouldn’t be talking to you right now. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:13:33] I think it’s really so inspiring to hear about this catalyst from exercise. What is it about exercise? Beyond the sense of accomplishment and the physicality of it, what do you think it is about exercise that for you was this powerful motivator for you to see clarity about what was possible in your life? 

Doug Bopst: [00:13:51] I think there’s not many other things that get you comfortable being uncomfortable, or being able to face your fears, or get developing self-discipline or belief in yourself, like exercise, commitment to yourself, because– I know you’re obviously, you’re very big into manifestation and spirituality and stuff, and I think that there’s a lot of space for that. But I do think that true confidence doesn’t come from just shouting affirmations out into the sky. I think it comes from validating your beliefs in yourself with the actions that you take. And so, I think exercise is one of the easiest wins to do that. If you tell yourself you care about yourself and that you love yourself and that you want to be healthier, well, then one of the things you should do on a regular basis is exercise. Whatever that looks like for you. It could be walking for five minutes, it could be lifting weights for an hour, depending on where you’re at. And I just think it gives you this unmatchable level of confidence, because you’re proving to yourself that you can change and that you can evolve and you can grow. 

[00:14:47] And I think for somebody like myself that was so focused on the past and was convinced that I was going to die by 25 years, convinced that I was going to remain a drug addict for the rest of my life, I was so mad at everybody else in my life. it became this vehicle to propel me towards something in the future. Because now I was like, “All right, here’s some goals that I want. I want to be able to do the set of 10 push-ups before I leave jail. I want to be able to run a mile. Then after that, I want to do these things.” And it also allowed me to channel a lot of this negative pain that I had in my life. I’ve heard other people in personal development space talk about this, and I learned it firsthand, where when I got to jail, there were people in jail telling me when I couldn’t do a push-up, they were like, “Think about what makes you angry.” 

[00:15:26] And I was so disconnected from my body that I couldn’t even think about what would make me angry. And that’s another thing that exercise does, is it gets you connected to yourself again. Think about all that has to happen for you to be able to do a push-up or to squat. There’s so many things that have to actually happen. And so, once I learned how to tap into that– I could think about the things that did upset me, whether it was being bullied in school or when kids would tell me that I looked like I had down syndrome or girls rejecting me or something with my parents. I learned that I could somehow process a lot of that sadness into something meaningful. It also became this incredible tool for me to reattach behavior to emotion. 

[00:16:05] It’s funny. Now you hear a lot about it now. All of this was all just like trial and error with me. I had no idea any of this was going to work in the way that it did. But what I realized is that my go to coping mechanism for stress, anxiety, depression, you name it, it was drugs, it was drama, it was anger, it was sadness, it was manipulation, all these things that was my normal. Well, in jail, I couldn’t do that. Because if I acted out in anger, I would have gotten the crap beaten out of me by somebody, or I would have gotten into solitary confinement or I would have fill in the blank. Something could have happened to me that would have made my life worse. So, there was no choice. So, I was forced to sit in that discomfort and choose something differently. 

[00:16:49] And thankfully, I had this thing called exercise to where when I got stressed or anxious. That became a great tool for me to channel all that. And that carried with me not only throughout my early days out of jail, but throughout the course of my life. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:17:03] Yeah. I think that for each one of us– I’ve started speaking more openly about this on the podcast. I grew up with an alcoholic parent, and I never fully appreciated and or realized how much that impacted behaviors that I had. I was very achievement oriented. If I achieved, my parents left me alone. If they left me alone, I could do my own thing. And it’s taken many years of therapy. I know we both have connected with Gabor Maté. And Gabor and I had a whole conversation about– He said, “You realize that someone that’s an alcoholic, the degree of pain that they’re trying to numb themselves from.” 

[00:17:35] I think in a lot of different levels, I view my parents very compassionately, and I acknowledge that maybe it’s our generation, your generation, where we’re talking more openly about feelings, we’re sharing more about our experiences. I think in so many ways, hearing your story inspires me to be even more conscientious about sharing my experiences and being more transparent with my children. I have two teenagers who are not perfect, just like I’m perfectly imperfect. But I think through that journey, our own experiences growing up, it allows us to have the opportunity to inspire others. I think that certainly hearing your story, reading your story, listening to your story, both when you were a guest on other podcasts and on your own podcast, really left me with this indelible impression. 

[00:18:23] So, yes, I believe that exercise was something that allowed you to be more connected to yourself and your feelings. But intrinsically, I fervently believe that whether you were aware of it or not, that you chose while you were in jail to change the trajectory of where things were going. Because like I mentioned earlier, I think it could have been easy to fall back into preexisting patterns. And you mentioned you were disconnected from family members and from peers, and feeling like in many ways, you weren’t seen. And now completely the opposite is now the case, that you are on a very visible platform, you’re inspiring so many other with your words and also sharing your own experiences very transparently. 

Doug Bopst: [00:19:01] I appreciate that. And I think exercise definitely was something that was the catalyst for all of this. I still had problems when I got out of jail. Like you alluded to, I was disconnected from family members. I was still angry at myself and at my past. And I think the goal, it’s funny. The trajectory of my fitness goals has evolved over the years where initially, it was about survival. I was like, “All right, I need to find something that’s not a drug that can keep me sane.” And then once I saw some progress, it was, “Huh, I’ve seen these guys who are ripped, have pretty girlfriends, or I’ve seen these guys who are ripped, I think they’re happy and they have all the things. I’m going to go after that. That’s going to be my goal. I’m going to get an eight pack,” or whatever. And then I did that. I pursued it hard and quick and fast. I got Arnold Schwarzenegger’s Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding. I started to read more. 

[00:19:50] Again, I started reading Muscle & Fitness, which was huge back in the day, and Men’s Health and Men’s Fitness. And I started to learn more about nutrition and exercise programming and stuff like that. And then what I realized is that my life really didn’t get any better. Sure, I felt great physically. I wasn’t using drugs or anything, but I still had that same sadness. I still had this, “What’s wrong with me? Why am I not happy?” I still had this level of cognitive dissonance when I looked in the mirror, because I was bullied a lot when I was a kid, and I was called names, and I was told things that you would never want your kids to even hear. And so, in my 20s, once I started to lose weight and look certain way, people were like, “You look like Mark Wahlberg.” 

[00:20:27] I thought that initially was an insult, because I was so used to people talking to me in a certain way that I didn’t even know if that was– I couldn’t figure out if it was a compliment or an insult. And then I realized it was a compliment. But I say that because I would look in the mirror and I still would see the old version of me, because I hadn’t processed a lot of the old version of me. I wasn’t using drugs. I had found this new passion in fitness. My life was significantly better, no doubt, but I still had a lot of resentment meant towards my mom, my dad, and my childhood and all these things. And so, it forced me to go to therapy, and really dig into a lot of that and figure out how to rewire some of those neuropathways, how to change the way I talk to myself. 

[00:21:04] Cynthia, I would literally, [chuckles] because I was so worried that I still was the past version of me in some ways, I would have to write down on a piece of paper like, who was I in the past? What was I doing? What kind of people was I spending time with? And then what was I doing now? Just so I could see as some sort of validation that I had significantly changed. And then I learned about this concept called homeostasis, which, as I understand it, it’s like this level of normal, like, physiological normalcy. And my therapist at the time was like, “How did you grow up?” And I was telling her, “My parents got divorced. I was blah, blah, blah.” And she was like, “No. What was life like? Was life stressful? Were you anxious?” And I was like, “Oh, I was anxious and stressed all the time.” And she’s like, “Yeah, that’s your normal. Your body has adapted to surviving in stress.” Because what would happen is not only was I upset with myself about the past and the resentments, but I was getting anxious and stressed over nothing where I was like a single guy making great money as a trainer, like, no real problems, but I was still stressed all the time. And so, I had to understand how to deal with that. And that was also normal, given my circumstances. 

[00:22:06] And then the biggest thing was just having also hard conversations with, specifically my mom, who I felt like I really did the most damage to. I was a jerk to her when I was a teenager, and she ended up kicking me out on my 16th birthday, which changed the trajectory of my childhood permanently. Like, I kicked out of her house. I was no longer living with her half the time, went to a brand-new school, went to live with my dad full time, who I didn’t have the greatest relationship with. And then we didn’t communicate barely. There was times where I wasn’t even allowed in her house. And it really took a toll on mentally, because I felt abandoned, I felt angry, I felt all the things. And now that I’ve matured and I’ve gotten past that, I realized it wasn’t intentional. She was just trying to do the best that she could with which the tools she had in front of her. 

[00:22:47] Addiction wasn’t talked about or mental health like it is today. This is back in 2003, when I got kicked out. So, it’s totally different today. And so, it was having hard conversations with her, and apologizing, and being vulnerable and admitting that I was wrong, and her admitting that she wishes she would have done stuff differently. That kind of opened the gates to building, not just a surface level connection where we were saying, “I’m sorry,” but where we actually understood each other and had compassion and started to build a meaningful relationship together. And so, doing that, forgiving my dad, looking at my past and coming to terms with it, becoming a Christian, these things were very pivotal for me in redefining my relationship with external validation. Because now I wasn’t seeking attention from fitness or vanity, because I would walk around my shirt off around the gym, and I would like– walking outside with my shirt off, and people would see me. 

[00:23:37] It was just a very weird time for me, because I look back now and I’m like, “I can’t believe I did some of the stuff that I did.” Or, I would just date girls because they were pretty just to make me, myself feel good, only for things not to work out or me to realize that I got myself into something that I shouldn’t have only because I wanted attention. And so, once I started to do all that work, all that stuff subsided, where it wasn’t about the way I looked necessarily anymore. It wasn’t about just going after somebody because of just purely their looks. It wasn’t about any of that. Because I had healed a lot of my intimate relationships with my family and healed the relationship with myself, I wasn’t looking for as much external validation anymore to fill that massive void. Hopefully, that all made sense. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:24:18] No, it did. I want to acknowledge that you talked about the trauma and stress that you grew up in. We know that individuals that are exposed to a lot of trauma as children, I’m one of them myself. These call them adverse childhood events. There’s these ACEs scores and how that can influence our autonomic nervous system. So, you mentioned you were like hyper responsive to everything, because that’s how your nervous system had been conditioned. So, that requires quite a bit of effort to convince your body that you’re safe, you’re in a safe space, you can relax, you don’t have to be hyper vigilant, hyperreactive. And that in and of itself requires a lot of work and a lot of self-reflection. And so, I want to acknowledge that. 

[00:24:58] And then you mentioned the external validation piece, which was one of my next questions I was going to talk about. You mentioned that external validation is a cage when we’re looking for validation of ourselves, if we’re a woman, we’re a man, whether it’s through attention from the opposite sex or the same sex, or buying expensive clothes or cars or taking expensive vacations. How does someone, if they’re listening to this, how do we do the internal work, so that we stop putting so much emphasis on things that are less important? Does that make sense? 

Doug Bopst: [00:25:31] Yeah. Listen, it’s tough.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:32] Easier said than done. [laughs] 

Doug Bopst: [00:25:34] Well, I think it’s easier said than done. And one of the main reasons is, because a lot of this is valid and health like, health is still important. I think there is something to be said for the way that you look. And having a low and healthy level of body fat percentage, I think that’s a healthy thing. I think having great relationships, being attracted to your partner, I think that’s all normal. And I think wanting more for yourself and chasing after money, I think that’s normal. I think it is. Success is a normal part of life where I think it gets slippery is where it’s the end-all, be-all, where if you notice yourself– Like, for me, I’ll just speak in my own experience. Like, I was traveling on airplanes with chicken and broccoli, because I was afraid–

[00:26:12] I talked about that Todd Durkin, who went to middle school with, I think, for a few years, was a longtime mentor of mine and somebody who’s also been very instrumental in my life. I would go out to see him on the West Coast, and I would bring frozen chicken and broccoli with me on the plane, because I was afraid that if I ate anything else that I would gain weight or you wouldn’t be able to see one of my abs or whatever. And it wasn’t because I was competing in some competition. It was because in my mind, I was like, “I’m not lovable if I don’t look this way, or I’m going to be miserable with myself if I don’t look this way.” 

[00:26:44] And so, if you’re having thoughts like that where the reason you’re eating so healthy or you’re so attached to exercise is because you think that you’re unlovable. Otherwise, I think that’s time to reevaluate, go to therapy or hire some sort of coach that’s skilled in that kind of thing, or meet, go to community support groups or whatever you think is doable with where you’re at. If your level of happiness is dependent upon how other people view you, I think that’s a problem. But again, that’s also a slippery slope, because you need feedback in your life. Like, if I were to sit here and I were to call you a name, I should look at myself in the mirror after you saying something to me and be like, “I shouldn’t have said that.” There’s a difference and there’s a fine line. But I think people listening to this, hopefully, you understand what I mean in that if you’re so dependent on how people view you and validation, and that you are posting stuff on social media because you’re lonely and you want to get a bunch of likes, that’s a problem. 

[00:27:33] If you’re posting something on social media though, because you genuinely want to post something that’s inspiring to you and to help others, that’s a different story. Or, if you truly feel that you’re ready to date and looking for a partner because you feel secure with yourself and you feel like that’s going to add something to your life, then that’s one thing. The external validation that you’ll get is probably healthy, and it’s going to elevate who you are as a person if it’s with the right person. But if you’re feeling down on yourself and you’re like, “You know what? I’m going to get on a dating app and just see how much attention I can get, in my case, from women, that’s a problem.” Because now I’m using that one thing that was once good for something that’s super negative. 

[00:28:10] So, I just think it all comes back to self-awareness, and understanding yourself and finding a way to help you get self-aware, so that you can understand how these behaviors are impacting you. Because it is a journey. And for me, the hardest part of it all was the health part, because you got to remember like, health saved my life. Like, the way that my habits around health and fitness saved my life, like not eat– I was on a diet when I was in jail, because my cellmate knew, and you know this, you’re a coach and practitioner, you get this, that in order for people to stay motivated, they got to see results. And honestly, it’s like one of the most under talked about things. You have to see results. You have to see–

[00:28:45] So, he knew that if I cut out certain foods and I cut my calories, I would see results. And I did. So, what did that do? It kept me motivated, because I was also feeling better about myself. I was also accomplishing the physical stuff as well. But then when I got out of jail, I was like, “All right, if I don’t eat a certain way, does this mean that I’m going to get fat again? Does this mean I’m going to go back to doing drugs? Does this mean that I’m going to gain weight?” And so, it was that battle inside my mind that I had to figure out how to harness it. And again, it came back to, I looked at the context of the rest of my life and that. I was sacrificing certain relationships, because I didn’t want to go out to eat. I was at home, like eating like tilapia and asparagus at night watching TV or something. 

[00:29:26] When I was like 23 years or 24 years, I should have been out with my friends. That’s what you’re supposed to do. [chuckles] And so, I took a lot of therapy. It took a lot of just reevaluating my relationship with health and figuring out what was important to me. But again, if you’re listening to this and you’re in that spot, just realize it’s okay. It’s an easy trap to fall into, especially in the year that we’re in now, and just figure out what’s a good, easy next step for you to do to be able to combat this and try to turn things around. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:29:52] I think that you bring up some really good points. Talking about if your desire to be healthy is to be exactly that healthy, that’s very different than orthorexia. People that go to extremes that they’re concerned about their food being contaminated, if they go to a restaurant or if their food touches another ingredient. I heard so many different variations of this. I’m known for intermittent fasting. I have some people, I have to tell them to stop fasting because they have such an unhealthy relationship with eating or not eating that it’s no longer serving them. And I think that’s really what you’re speaking to is if you feel like you have an unhealthy habit, get some help, get some support, get some coaching that will help you get into a different mindset, or perhaps even consider formal therapy, which I’m a huge proponent of. I tell everyone I think I will be intermittently in therapy for the rest of my life. And sometimes things will trigger me, and I realize that’s something I need to work on. 

Doug Bopst: [00:30:43] Yeah. Speaking of the fasting thing, and I know that’s your jam and I’m sure we’ll talk about it when you come on my show, I have this rule with my clients where it’s like, for a lot of my clients, I should say that they’re not allowed to bring up any fat, kind of not fat, but anything outside of the norm. Until they’ve mastered drinking enough water, their sleep is on point, they’re getting enough protein, they’re getting enough fiber, and they’re strength training regularly. When they do that, I’ll talk about anything. I’ll give my perspective. Because I think it’s important for people just to master the fundamentals. Because I think for me, I was always looking for the quick fixes to fix my mental health. 

[00:31:19] At first, I wasn’t willing to do the deep work to going to therapy and working on my relationships and all that. I was looking for exercise to fill that void. Because as a kid, I thought that if I looked a certain way and if I got attention from certain people, that I would be happy, because the inverse was true. I didn’t look a certain way, and I wasn’t getting attention from certain people, and I was miserable. So, I thought if I did the opposite, my life would change. And it was just a very sad story, [chuckles] obviously, that it didn’t. But I just think that in this world where everything is so confusing with– You got so many diet tribes out there and so much information and confusion. I do think it’s important to master the fundamentals first and focusing on that. Because listen, if you’re getting enough protein, fiber, you’re strength training, you’re sleeping well and you’re drinking enough water, you’re probably doing better than 95% of the people out there. And I think that’s an important point. 

[00:32:05] Now, fasting obviously can be a great tool for people if it works. Fasting worked great for my schedule as a trainer, because I had clients from like 06:00 AM to noon. So, I couldn’t eat. I could, but people might get a little mad at me for bringing out like, eggs and oatmeal at 08:00 AM. [Cynthia laughs] But I think when people are listening to this and trying to figure out a place to start to improve their life. I think it’s like, what’s the lowest hanging fruit that gives the biggest pop for you? And I think in the exercise space I just mentioned, I think in the mental health space, at least from my personal experience, it’s looking at the people you spend time with. It’s getting outside in nature. It’s finding a spirituality practice that works for you. It’s finding some form of therapy, whether that’s one on one or some sort of online support group, and it’s developing some sort of self-awareness practice where you’re able to understand what you’re doing and thinking on a daily basis and how that’s all intertwined with where you want to go in your life. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:59] Now, you may be surprised to hear me say this, but I 100% agree with you. I think that whether it is keto, carnivore, intermittent fasting, veganism, whatever it is that people are trending on or they’re interested in, if you’re not doing the bare bone basics, moving your body, hydrating your body, sleeping– Women in particular, if I can’t get a woman to sleep through the night, I tell them, “Do not start fasting. Do not add another stressor to your existence.” And to your point about strength training, gosh, a la Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who’s had an enormous impact on the trajectory of my knowledge and my own career. I always give her credit and I tell people all the time, “If you’re not getting enough protein, especially as a middle-aged person, that loss of muscle mass is going to have catastrophic impact on your metabolic health.” And so, stop doing all the chronic cardio and start doing more strength training, and you will see substantial impact on your health, not just your metabolic health, your mental health. 

[00:34:01] I was in the gym this morning. I was thinking about our discussion today, what direction I want to take things in. And I really think in many ways, physical activity, going to the gym, whether you work out at home or you work out in a gym, whatever works for your personal schedule. But that consistent investment in yourself is something that no one can ever take away from you. And the confidence that being healthy brings to you– I’m at a stage in my life where I’m now becoming an outlier. And I don’t want that to be the case. I want everyone to be as healthy as my husband and I are. But the unfortunate thing, if you look at the statistics, that’s not the direction things are heading in. And it’s always a concern of mine. But I 100% fervently agree with you that you’ve got to get the basics down first before you start adding in more advanced strategies. Strategies that could work really well. But don’t focus on just being carnivore when you don’t move your body and you’re chronically dehydrated and your sleep is in the toilet. 

Doug Bopst: [00:34:53] Right. I think I posted on Twitter or X or whatever you call it now, I think I said something like– 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:34:57] [laughs] It’ll always be Twitter. 

Doug Bopst: [00:35:01] If you’re focusing on removing seed oils, but you’re not strength training, it’s time to reevaluate your priorities. I think I said that just because I’m honestly not the smartest person when it comes to the research behind seed oils and stuff. But I do see it gets a lot of attention. I see people and I’m like, “Well, I hope that you’re strength training and that you’re doing all the basics first, because that’s going to give you way more than removing seed oils, where if you’re not exercising, you’re not strength training, you’re missing the boat. I think there’s pain is this ultimate lever in life, where you can use it to your advantage. I’m sure a lot of the choices that have changed your life or choices that I’ve made that have changed my life came from, in many ways, moments of pain where you got angry or you got sad or you got upset, and you figured out, like, “All right, no more of this. I’m going to do something about this,” whether it was a big or small change. 

[00:35:45] Also, with that said, I think people make poor decisions when they’re in pain or they go through a breakup, they lose their job. It gives them this– I don’t want to say excuse, but it gives them almost this right to say, “Okay, I’m going to just solve all my problems with something that’s unhealthy.” I think when you’re in the gym, it’s the ultimate way to have a good relationship with pain. Because whether you’re trying to– For me, if I’m trying to build a bigger bicep, I have to train that muscle till near failure. I have to keep lifting heavier, doing more reps until I almost fail for it to grow. If you’re trying to run a faster mile, you literally have to in some way fatigue your lungs, fatigue your respiratory system, your cardiovascular system for you to develop enough endurance and enough capacity to be able to run further or faster. If you’re trying to hold a pose in yoga longer, there’s going to be a little bit discomfort and pain. So, you see where I’m going with this and that, I think that carries over to life, because you’re just slowly convincing yourself that you can persevere and push through discomfort and hard times. When things get challenging, you don’t give up on yourself. 

[00:36:47] I think the main reason that people go to the gym when they’ve exercised for so long isn’t necessarily for the gains in the gym. I’m trying to obviously grow my biceps because I’m a guy, and I just think that’s what guys typically like to do. [Cynthia [laughs] I’m half kidding, but I think obviously that’s a goal for most guys. But in the real, it’s like, I go for my mental health. I go because I take care of myself. I go because I develop discipline. I know that even though I don’t feel like doing it, I still do it because I know that if I don’t feel like going to the gym and I don’t go to the gym, I know there’s going to be other things where if I don’t feel like going on a podcast, I’m not going to go on the podcast. I think you have to develop that muscle of grit and fortitude, and just showing up even when you’re feeling a little hurt, even when you’re tired, even when you’re stressed, because that’s going to teach you that when life gets hard, when things get hard, you don’t curl up in a ball. You’ve taught yourself that you can fight back and you can keep pushing through. I think that is the ultimate game changer, because people will look at me now and I’m sure they look at you and they’re like, “Oh, I’m sure your life’s easy. Like, you have this podcast and you have this platform and you’re not using drugs.” I’m like, “No, I still have problems.” 

[00:37:51] I think last night I got like four hours of sleep and I’m stressed. I saw that there was some crime right by where I live and I’m like, “So, life happens.” And I say that because the way I deal with it now is much different. It’s like, “All right, I’m not going to beat myself up because I got four hours of sleep. I’m going to figure out how I’m going to do better tonight. I’m not going to go and numb myself, because I was a little stressed about some crime that happened. I’m going to go to the gym, I’m going to,” whatever, fill in the blank and that carries over. I think that is just something that I think people must develop. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:38:22] Yeah. It’s interesting. I would add that for me, I feel like when I’m in the gym, I’m not on my phone. I may be listening to a book, I may be listening to a podcast, but I am absolutely present with what I’m doing. And for me, the endorphins that I get from working out, it just allows me to decompress and get out of my head. When I’m in the gym, I’m in the gym. I don’t socialize. I’m not an unfriendly person. But when I’m in the gym, I’m serious about what I’m doing. And so, I like to get in, get my workout done, and get out so I can get my day started. 

[00:38:51] Now, you touched on a topic that I think a lot of– I’m going to pick on women and just say. I think a lot of women don’t work to failure. What does that mean to you as a trainer? Because I, 100%, agree that when I work out harder to failure, I see more results than when I don’t. But it’s human nature to avoid pushing your body. It’s like, “Oh, that’s a little painful. I don’t want to do that.” Let me just be very clear. I’m not referring to pain as in you’re hurting yourself. Whether it’s lactic acid buildup, whether you’ve just fatigued that muscle, that it’s no longer wanting to do what you’re trying to make it do. But why do you think a lot of people avoid pushing their bodies a little harder than what they want? Is it a mindset piece? Is it a physicality piece? What do you think? 

Doug Bopst: [00:39:39] I think it’s a blend of a lot of things. I think we’re talking women specifically, and I’ve trained a lot of women through the years. It’s like, the first thing that they say when I bring up strength training is, the first thing they say is, “Well, I don’t want to get bulky.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:39:50] You can’t physiologically. 

Doug Bopst: [00:39:51] Right. And so, that said, I think if they’re just working out on their own, I think they have this mindset thing like, “Oh, if I lift heavy or if I really push it, I’m going to get bulky and I’m not going to look the way that I want.” So, I think there’s that. I think there’s also the mindset piece where being comfortable feels really good and not wanting to get hurt and being like, “You know what? This is what I’ve done. I’m just going to stick to my routine. I’m not really trying to push it. I’m just here to do my thing.” I think that plays a role. 

[00:40:17] And I think also people just maybe just don’t really know. They don’t really know. Because if you go and you take a set of dumbbells and do some half rep fast curls, that might feel easy to somebody. But when you show them that like, you got to really focus on coming down slow and then full range of motion, then come up, squeeze a little bit, come down slow, now that 8 to 10 reps feel a lot more challenging because you’re going through a full range of motion, you’re really activating the muscle in the full capacity. When I say trained of failure, it’s not like I’m on the bench and I’m having somebody lift the bench off or the bar off of me when it’s like sitting there on my chest after a set. It’s more like if my goal is 10 reps, it’s trying to get seven to eight solid reps where I’m really pushing it and I have a couple of reps left if I needed to, but I’m saving it. That’s what I mean when it goes to near failure.

[00:41:11] And so, it’s hard, I think, because people also equate failure to just being out of breath where, “Okay, if I’m going to train to failure, that means I’m going to put a circuit of 9 to 10 different exercises. I’m just going to go all out. I’m going to hit the sled, push-ups, burpees, mountain climbers, box jumps and I’m training till failure.” Well, you’re working your cardiovascular system pretty good. Depending on your heart rate, you’re probably working your Zone 3 cardio really good or whatever you’re at. But as far as failure, when it comes to strength training, it’s a totally different ballgame. Because remember, the rest periods in between sets, depending on what your program looks like, a program could easily be, I’m going to do a set of squats, I’m going to take a two-to-three-minute rest, I’m going to go back to it. Or, if you’re crunched for time, you could do an upper body and a lower body, you could do a set of squats, and then do like a dumbbell row or a bench press and then rest for a few minutes, and come back and by that time, you have gotten an adequate rest. 

[00:42:07] So, I say that because a lot of it I think just comes back to understanding. And I think that’s why having conversations like this, like Gabrielle Lyon, I know, talks a lot about strength training and protein. I think once people have an understanding of what it actually means and that they don’t have to just rush through a workout, I think it really allows them to get more comfortable with going to failure. Because I think when people hear failure and they’re like, “Well, I got all this stuff to do, how could I possibly have the energy to go to failure with a million different exercises if that’s how they’re?” Does that making sense? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:39] No, it totally does. I think the other piece that what I’m hearing you talking about is that connection with our bodies that I know when I’m lifting more slowly, I’m not using momentum. I’m thinking about the muscle that I’m working. And there’s actually research to suggest that the connection between your mind or your brain and the muscle that you’re working, you will have greater results if you’re making that connection of, “Okay, I’m lifting from my biceps.” And thinking about your biceps as you’re actually lifting or whether it’s your quadriceps or your hamstrings or some other exercise that you’re doing, making that muscle connection with the brain will actually yield more benefits than just going through it mindlessly. 

[00:43:19] I think a lot of people go to the gym and it’s a mindless exercise. They’re comfortable, which in and of itself, it has a place. But in the gym, when you’re doing the work, do the work, finish your workout and go on and do the other things you need to do in your life. I think I would rather work really hard for 35 minutes than be in the gym for two hours. That’s my feeling. I’m all about efficiency. 

Doug Bopst: [00:43:40] The reality is, with a lot of my training clients, we do max, nine different exercises in a session. And depending on how many days a week they come in or depending on what their goals are, it’s programmed. It might have some variations to it. But it’s not a lot. It’s like good, solid strength training, adequate rest, good core work, maybe some conditioning at the end, if that’s their goal or they’re looking to improve that. I think cardio can be good, for sure. But I think the problem becomes when people think of exercise just being cardio. And that counts in lieu of strength training. I think cardio can be important if it’s part of a program, but not when it’s like you go into the gym and you’re riding the elliptical. 

[00:44:21] Now, I do want to say to the person who’s doing that who hasn’t exercised in 20 years, I think that’s great. But to the person who’s really trying to optimize their program, and they’ve been doing it for a long time, and they’ve been going to the gym for years, doing the elliptical, doing like a set on the leg press, doing the seated row machine casually and then going home and just saying, “Oh, I did a couple of sets and I got my 40 minutes in on the elliptical.” I would be a terrible coach if I didn’t say we should reevaluate and see how we can flip that and get some proactive programming in– with strength training and then throw a little bit of cardio in at the end to burn it out or what have you. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:44:57] No, I love that. Now, you’ve mentioned and you talk about it in the book as well, the role of faith and the role of your faith and how important that has been for you. How do you practice your faith now at this stage of your life? Do you formally go to church, or is it more of just a personal relationship with God or the universe? 

Doug Bopst: [00:45:16] It’s always been a personal relationship for me, just because I got into it in such a– I don’t want to say unique way. I feel like everybody has this– A lot of people have these, “come to Jesus’ moment.” No pun intended. But I hated religion growing up because I thought that if God was good and that if He was real like, why is my life in disarray? Why is all this horrible stuff happening to me? So, I had this warped relationship with it. And then once my life started to fall apart emotionally, like I talked about with my unhealthy relationship to exercise and external validation and stuff, I was, ironically, with Todd Durkin– We were on a run. We were in San Diego and he was like, “Man, you have everything you’ve got. You’re a good-looking dude. You’ve got your life figured out. You have a good business. People really like you. You have a great story,” like all these things. “But you need some faith. I feel like there’s something missing in your life.” 

[00:46:03] And so, around that same time, one of my training clients was a pastor at this non-denominational church. And the last time I’d been to a non-denominational church, it was like a rock concert. It was so weird to me. I was like, “What is going on here? This is so strange.”

[laughter]

[00:46:16] From where I grew up, like old school Greek orthodox, where none of that existed completely. Like, the opposite. And this guy was like, “Hey, man, you should start coming to church with me.” And I was like, “Nah.” He’s like, “We’ll go to Chipotle”. And I’m like, “Nah, I’m not. I eat healthy. I’m not going to Chipotle.” He just kept nudging me and nudging me. And then finally, after talking Todd and just having these situations where my life just wasn’t working out in the way that it was, and I’d started to go into therapy and stuff, I called this guy and I just said, “Hey, man, I think I’m ready to give this Jesus thing a try.” I think it felt like I just told him that he won like a hundred million dollars. I was like, “Why is this guy so happy? I couldn’t figure it out.” 

[laughter]

[00:46:52] And then I went to his office and he had me do this prayer. And then I just started crying. And I tear up a little bit when I think about it, because I remember just walking out of the church, and it’s right down the street from where I live and just calling my mom for the first time, apologizing to her for the way I behaved, and just saying that I was actually sorry. And then I wasn’t just saying sorry, just to get her to say she loved me or something. And then I started to realize that even though I wasn’t proud of what I had done and proud of my life, the way I lived before, God was because now, He not only helped me transform my own pain, but I was helping others transform their pain as well. I started to get really comfortable with my past, and I started to really identify with this whole theme of resurrection and becoming new. 

[00:47:33] And that’s how it’s really shaped my relationship with faith up until this day. I used to go to church frequently. And then during the pandemic, things went online, so I didn’t go as much. And now I’ll do whatever I can. I do what I can to stay connected. I’m obviously still have a relationship with God and a Christian, but it’s definitely evolved where I also believe in other forms of spirituality as well, whether it be meditation, being in nature, stuff like that. 

[00:47:59] So, to me, it’s like I look at it and like, “All right, am I a good person? Do I treat other people in the way that Jesus would behave? Yes or no?” And then can I look myself in the mirror and admit when wrong? Like, “Do I have that kind of conviction?” Because I do. There’s times I still am wrong. A lot. And maybe it’s not as severe as when I was a kid, but there’s stuff I’ll say, I’ll get an email and I’ll respond right away– I’ll end up calling one of my mentors and, “Man, I feel really bad. I just responded very impulsively and I don’t think I should have.” 

[00:48:26] And so, I think that’s a true tell sign that I still feel convicted in some way that I could be behaving differently in certain ways, because I’m not here to say that I’m this perfect human. I’m still very flawed. I think the difference is that I’m growing constantly. I own it, I’m not afraid to talk about it. And that I think that’s just the ultimate gift of life, is being able to acknowledge when you’re wrong, figuring out how you can grow from it and not thinking that I know everything. Because I realized that from my cellmate helping me, when I was in jail, I realized I didn’t know everything, so it got me used to seeking out mentorship from other people and learning from others and realizing that I wasn’t the smartest person in the room and being able to get comfortable with that, because there was times in my life where I thought I knew everything and I thought that I was right and that people hated me and the world was against me, and that almost led to my death, and it led to me going to jail. 

[00:49:16] So, I’m super thankful for my relationship with God, because I think faith is everything. I think without faith– If you didn’t have faith, it means that you wouldn’t have taken a chance on yourself. And if you don’t take a chance, it means that you never believed in yourself. If you didn’t believe in yourself, it means that you didn’t have any kind of hope in what you stand for. If you don’t have any kind of hope what you stand for, what does that say about your meaning and your purpose and what’s in your heart? And I think it’s so important, whether you’re a believer in God or not, to have faith and that believing that when you’re in the thick of darkness– I know I’m going down a rabbit hole here, but when you’re in the thick of it, faith is what keeps you going. Like, that belief in the unseen, of knowing that like, “All right, I don’t know how this is going to end up. I don’t know when I’m going to get out of this thing. But I know that if I keep moving forward and I keep doing the right thing, eventually I will see light.” 

[00:50:02] I think fear, which is in my mind, the opposite of faith, keeps people frozen in that place of darkness, and even turning around and going back to the same levels of comfort and same patterns, because they’re so scared to move forward in what that change would look like. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:20] Well, and it’s interesting because one of the podcasts I listened to in prep for today was your conversation with Dr. Tara Swart. And at the very beginning of the conversation, she talks about an abundance mindset that’s highly influenced by oxytocin, the hormone oxytocin versus scarcity mindset, fear or fear of lack, really fuels cortisol. And that survival fear mechanism in our bodies can influence the way that we think and the choices that we make in terms of neuroplasticity and so many other things. And so, a lot of what I’m hearing from you is faith. Your faith has allowed you to have a mindset of abundance which has led you down a different path. 

[00:51:01] And I’m so glad and so grateful that we connected. I’ve so enjoyed this conversation. I would love for you to share with listeners, how to connect with you, how to connect to your amazing podcast for which I will be a guest next month, how to purchase your books or check out your work online. 

Doug Bopst: [00:51:14] Well, thanks again for having me on. I really appreciate it, especially given that this is like newer territory for you. I really appreciate you giving me a shot and exposing my story to your audience. I’m really thankful for that. Again, I’m thankful that we connected and looking forward to having you on my show. And the best place to find me is just through my website, it’s dougbopst.com. If you want to buy the books, if you want to check out the podcast, it’s there. If you want to learn more about me, it’s there as well. Podcast is called The Adversity Advantage, and it’s available wherever you get your podcast, whether that be Apple, Spotify, YouTube, etc. And then on social media, I’m most active. I would say, on Instagram, which I’m @dougbopst. So, thanks again for having me on. Hope the audience gets a lot of value out of this.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:56] Absolutely. 

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Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:59] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review, subscribe and tell a friend.